Karen and John - Are You Ready to Become a New Manager?

Always good to be back in the studio with my friend and colleague Karen Shulman! This week we tackle the challenge of moving into management for the first time and how to do it without falling into The Bosshole® Zone.  Enjoy!

Related TBC episodes:

• Making Mini Me's
• Is it a Bosshole or a Tormentor?
• Jason Lauritsen - The Check-In Method™

HERE ARE MORE RESOURCES FROM REAL GOOD VENTURES:

Never miss a good opportunity to learn from a bad boss...

Click HERE to get your very own Reference Profile.  We use The Predictive Index as our analytics platform so you know it's validated and reliable.  Your Reference Profile informs you of your needs, behaviors, and the nuances of what we call your Behavioral DNA.  It also explains your work style, your strengths, and even the common traps in which you may find yourself.  It's a great tool to share with friends, family, and co-workers.

Follow us on Twitter HERE and make sure to share with your network!

Provide your feedback HERE, please!  We love to hear from our listeners and welcome your thoughts and ideas about how to improve the podcast and even suggest topics and ideas for future episodes.

Visit us at www.realgoodventures.com.  We are a Talent Optimization consultancy specializing in people and business execution analytics.  Real Good Ventures was founded by Sara Best and John Broer who are both Certified Talent Optimization Consultants with over 50 years of combined consulting and organizational performance experience.  Sara is also certified in EQi 2.0.  RGV is also a Certified Partner of Line-of-Sight, a powerful organizational health and execution platform.  RGV is known for its work in leadership development, executive coaching, and what we call organizational rebuild where we bring all our tools together to diagnose an organization's present state and how to grow toward a stronger future state.

Transcript

John Broer: 0:04

When I was first getting into management, I had a trusted mentor give me some great advice and I'm going to share it with you now. That advice was this management is not a popularity contest, he said, "john, don't go into it hoping to be loved and admired. That's the wrong perspective. When you become a manager or supervisor, you need to be a trusted, helpful coach and mentor to your people. But there are a lot of people that get into management that think it's going to be wonderful and they're going to be admired by their direct reports, and that is absolutely the wrong perspective.

John Broer: 0:38

Welcome back to the Bossh ole Chronicles everybody. This is your co-host, John Broer, and joining me today is going to be my amazing friend and colleague, Karen Schulman, and we're going to be talking about moving into management for the first time. Maybe you're thinking about getting into management. Maybe your organization has talked to you about getting into management. This will serve as a great basis for understanding what to expect, how to avoid the pitfalls and some disciplines you can begin to use right away to become the most effective manager or developer of people possible. So let's jump in. The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. As always. Karen, it is good to have you back on the Bossh ole Chronicles. Welcome.

Karen Shulman: 1:43

Thank you very much. It's excellent to be back. I'm excited for our topic today.

John Broer: 1:48

Oh yeah, this is a good one, and actually it's kind of surprising. We've been doing this for three and a half years and we finally are having this conversation, and today's topic is are you ready to become a manager? We've been talking about for the last couple of years reinventing the manager. Go back and listen to a lot of the Bossh ole Chronicles. You will hear a lot of topics, a lot of subject matter, expert episodes, our roundtables about reinventing the manager. So we really wanted to speak to those individual contributors out there that are thinking about getting into management or maybe are being asked to get into management or being a supervisor and just making sure you're heading into it with your eyes open, because I think, Karen, you and I could probably share. This is where we'll start off. We can share a little bit about our own management experiences and I know what I did wrong and I'm happy to share that in a second but, Karen, tell us about your foray, if you will, into the world of being a manager.

Karen Shulman: 2:55

Yeah, I was thrown into it, as I was describing to John a little earlier today. Basically I was made a supervisor in an area where I really was kind of somewhat new to it. But I might have been the most seasoned one on the team and didn't really get any training at all and didn't really know how to manage people and had a couple of very tough people to manage, one who was constantly late and another one who just really did his work kind of halfway and I didn't know how to handle those things. And I remember somebody that I worked with in our IT department said, "well, you've had a ton of management training, you have." And I said I have. And she said, yeah, she said it's kind of like they took you and threw you into a body of water and said sink or swim, there you go. And so, needless to say, I am sure I was a boss hole and I'm sure that I was quite an ineffective manager that first time. It was not a good experience at all.

John Broer: 4:03

Who could expect otherwise? Honestly, I mean, how many of us were not sort of thrown into it? And let's face it, on the one hand it's flattering. I mean, people are looking at you saying, hey, I think you could be a good manager, I think you could be a good supervisor. But just being thrown into the deep end and not getting any kind of a training, that is, I mean, how could that not be disastrous, at least in some degree? So that was your first management experience.

Karen Shulman: 4:33

Right yeah, that was my first.

John Broer: 4:34

Okay, so there was another one, correct.

Karen Shulman: 4:36

Yeah, there was and that was. It was kind of a bit of a role reversal, because now I was managing people who were quite seasoned role reversal because now I was managing people who were quite seasoned.

Karen Shulman: 4:47

I moved from finance into human resources at a very seasoned HR team that I was working with and I knew that I didn't know very much in terms of managing the function that we were responsible for. So I had to do, I had to become instead of being like an individual contributor, I had to become more of a good listener. I had to become somebody that was much more collaborative. I had to tap into the expertise of the people that I managed and, as a result, I think we had a much better team function. We did things much better and, to be very honest with you, I felt much more comfortable in that type of a situation than I did the first time that I managed.

John Broer: 5:32

Interesting, but you knew I mean going into it. These people had more, they were more seasoned, perhaps had more expertise, but you did not. I mean there are some people that would see that as a threat.

Karen Shulman: 5:47

You saw it as a real asset. Absolutely, yeah, and I had to. I had to rely on them, and I don't think I could have managed the function without working with them in the way that I did. And it was a totally different approach than what I had done in my first stint as a manager.

John Broer: 6:04

Interesting. Interesting Because my very first one. I was with a chemical company. I had been an individual contributor and living out. Yeah, opened a territory, opened a brand new territory and the company was growing and the president and I really appreciated it he came up, said, "hey, I'd like you to move back to the corporate office, I'd like you to run the sales program. And I got super excited. I mean it was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. Management, all the cool things that comes with it. Boy was I naive and I loved it. I loved the company, the people were great.

John Broer: 6:41

But I will tell you that I did not understand how to step out of the individual contributor role and into the management role. So I went to the corporate office, kind of feeling like a glorified individual contributor and I was supposed to help everybody else figure out how to do that, and I had no training whatsoever, none. So again, I think my experience could have been similar to yours in that, thrown into the deep end, no training, and it was sort of like, yeah, go get them kid. And I know I did some boss hole stuff. I absolutely did. You've heard this story before, I've shared it with our audience that I went out and I was seeking out new manager training and I found it in an organization had a couple of mentors actually guiding me, and that's when the revelation started coming around, when I started realizing how to avoid the pitfalls of becoming a new manager.

John Broer: 7:38

And I think, Karen, between you and I, we can share some of those today, we can really. For those managers out there, let's just be really clear. We don't want to discourage anybody from considering getting into management or being a supervisor. It is incredibly rewarding. I would say it's incredibly rewarding if you really have a desire to help people grow and help them develop. If you're getting into management because it's going to be a lot of notoriety and there's a lot of glory and a lot of money involved, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Would you agree with that?

Karen Shulman: 8:15

Oh, absolutely, and I think what you said earlier about you know basically probably you were tapped on the shoulder to become a manager, as was I, because we were great individual contributors.

John Broer: 8:27

Right.

Karen Shulman: 8:27

And so that's the way that people were promoted in the past. I'm hoping it's not still that way, but I'm not so certain.

John Broer: 8:33

I'm pretty sure it is yeah.

Karen Shulman: 8:36

Yeah, that if you're a really good individual contributor, we'll just put you on the management track and you will be as successful doing that. And it just doesn't quite work that way. And you're exactly right you have to go into management for the right reasons or your chances of being successful are probably pretty small.

John Broer: 8:55

Oh, for sure, For sure, and unfortunately, I think you're right. I think that trend of taking individual contributors I mean I know it because of the clients some of the clients with whom we're working they said oh yeah, that's exactly what we do. We see an individual contributor, we tap them on the shoulder, we put them into management. That rarely works out well if they don't get sufficient training. And, quite frankly, let's just get back to the beginning of, or let's get back to say some very basics, asking the question. So I'm going to ask a question to all of our prospective managers out there or maybe you're new in management why are you moving into management? Okay, so that's a big question. Ask yourself the question why am I moving into management? Was I asked to do this? And am I being asked to do this because I'm a great individual contributor? Or have I demonstrated or articulated that I really want to help coach and develop other people? I think I'm good at it. Maybe you've demonstrated it during group projects or something like that. But if you've been asked, think about the rationale behind being asked. It's a great compliment and, let's face it, we can get pretty excited about being tapped on the shoulder, but is it for the right reasons, and so organizations, if they're doing it because you're a great individual contributor, you may want to tap the brakes a little bit and do a little bit of self-reflection and saying am I willing to step away from being an individual contributor and now devote myself to the development of other people? Because that's really what it needs to be.

John Broer: 10:30

Another thing is and I mentioned this the money and the notoriety. I had a colleague of mine when the president of the company invited me and asked me to come back to the corporate offices to manage the sales team. I had a very good. He was an outside consultant for the company, somebody I trusted. He was a mentor for sure, and he said, "why on earth would you want to go into management? He said, John, you've got this territory, it's all yours. You're growing it. He said why would you want to take on the headaches of seven other people? Because that's what it's going to be. And I never thought about it that way, but one I did want to do it. I was excited about it, but I also didn't know what. I didn't know about managing people. But he actually made it very clear. He said if you're getting into it because you think there's glory and money and notoriety and all this other stuff. It's not there. You're doing it for the wrong reasons. Does that make sense it?

Karen Shulman: 11:32

Does, and I also think that maybe it's an older belief that when you're a manager, you get to sit back and you just get let the other people that report to you do the work, right, and you get to direct them, you get to tell them what to do, and I don't think that that's what management is, certainly not in this day and age. And if that's why you're getting into it because you would like the power of being able to do that- yeah. I think that's also a mistake, because I don't think that's correct.

John Broer: 12:04

Add to that, if you are being now tapped to manage your former peers, that really complicates it. So you can't sit back. You now have to change those relationships. The nature of those relationships have to change, because you are in more of a position of authority. You still want to develop and be an asset to them. But, yeah, it totally changes things. So one of the things I remember interestingly enough, ironically enough, after I had done my stint in the chemical industry I think it was about 11 years I actually left there to start my own corporate training practice. That was my first practice that I started. I actually got recruited by the organization that where I went to get my manager training. They actually brought me in as a member of the faculty to actually facilitate their management programs and help to build some of their programs.

John Broer: 12:56

But one of the things that we talked about is avoiding the pitfalls of being when you're a new manager, and one of them is creating clones. I remember that vividly. Somebody said, "do not try to create mini versions of you, and if you all go back to our actually I'll put it in the show notes If you go back into I think it was our second episode back in 2020, making mini me's. I think it was our second episode back in 2020, making mini-me's, and it was all about a manager that said you know that really wanted to make them small. You know versions of her. Don't create clones. Your direct reports have something uniquely individual to contribute. You need to tap into that and do not make them smaller or different versions of who you are. Into that and do not make them smaller or different versions of who you are. And that's where the data we have available, like PI data and other tools, help you understand that. Don't try to create clones. And the second one that really came out is you need to be a resource for them and not a liability. Boss holes are liabilities. Non-boss holes have figured out a way to be a real asset and to support and help grow their direct reports and their team members. But those are two things that stood out for me.

John Broer: 14:10

Another thing that I would encourage you to do is that if you've been tapped to go into management, don't do it without some training. Now hopefully, your company is willing to reimburse you for any kind of training. Go out and look for some training for new managers or prospective managers. I'll tell you what you know what is a great resource is the Bosshole Chronicles. I will flat out say we have had people say this podcast has been instrumental in helping me be a better manager, which we'd love to hear. But you got three and a half years worth of content to help you avoid the Boss hole Zone. So get some training and ask your company to invest in you to become a manager.

John Broer: 14:52

And then this one I think is really, really critical, and that is relinquishing your individual contributor tasks. Critical, and that is relinquishing your individual contributor tasks. A lot of times you are put into management and you don't give up your client list or your individual contributor tasks, and that's a huge mistake. So this is where you can learn one of the most crucial disciplines of a good manager, and that is delegation. And it doesn't mean just dumping your crap on other people. It means who are the people on my team to whom I could delegate these individual contributor tasks so you can be all about growing and developing other people. So I just really want to encourage you to think differently about this role.

John Broer: 15:34

With that, let's talk a little bit about some new disciplines. Karen, about the manager today needs to be very different than the manager of 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. We are talking about a different type of individual to manage and that takes different disciplines. So, from your perspective, what are some of the disciplines that they need to embrace in this amazing role as a developer of other people, as a manager?

Karen Shulman: 16:01

I like the terminology talent scout because I think when you're a manager you have to be able to assess the strengths of the people that work for you and you have to be able to kind of envision how do I help them become stronger performers, what type of work do they need to, what type of projects do they need, what type of tasks do they need to get even stronger or broader in their skill set? And it's almost like being a talent scout to really tap into where they are today and seeing where you need them to be down the road not just for your department but for the whole organization.

Karen Shulman: 16:46

Where else might they be able to fit in the organization and can you help bring them the projects, the tasks, the experiences, the exposure that they need to become a more talented performer in your organization? That's one of the things that I think, that's one of the disciplines, that is, it's a new way of looking at management. Is that whole concept of being a developer of people? Yeah, and I like the word talent scout. I love that it speaks to me.

John Broer: 17:35

I love that. I love that term, yeah, and I like the word talent scout. I mean, this happens a lot. We put people in roles for because we kind of think that they're going to be good at it, or it's sort of a gut feel, and then they struggle and then we blame them for struggling. This is why we don't do anything without objective data, anything at all. But it's also recognizing that we might have somebody in a wrong role. And I like what you said is how do we leverage their capabilities, perhaps in a role that might be in another place in the organization? And therefore we optimize who they are and what they do. Okay, okay.

Karen Shulman: 18:11

Good.

John Broer: 18:12

Good, what else?

Karen Shulman: 18:14

Well, what I'm thinking of is probably the same thing that you're thinking of the whole concept of being a coach and a mentor and I know you want to talk about that, so I'll turn it back to you.

John Broer: 18:25

Actually, historically, all great managers forever were actually more coaches and mentors than they were command and control, authoritarian taskmasters you know the old command and control methodology that is dying. We can't completely abandon command and control, which is, you know, the whole stoplight intersection command and control, which is the whole stoplight intersection. But the idea of trust and autonomy and how it is part of the repertoire of a good coach and mentor trust and autonomy in their people. I think that gets back to what you're talking about. If I'm a good talent scout and I know I have optimized job fit and team fit and I have the right people in the right roles, then I can afford to extend trust and autonomy because they're going to do their jobs and I can focus on how do I help them do their jobs more effectively as a coach. That's why I go back to the idea of if you are also an individual contributor.

John Broer: 19:33

If you still are doing your individual contributor stuff and adding onto that or being asked to add onto that management responsibilities those are two totally different worlds. It cannot be done effectively. That's why don't let the mistake be made that you are still maintaining individual contributor types of responsibilities. Dedicate yourself to being that talent scout and developing and coaching your folks. By the way, I just want to point out this will also be in the show notes. A few months ago, Karen and I did an episode called Boss Hole or Tormentor, because the word "mentor is in the word tormentor. I'm going to put that in there too, because that's a really helpful message for people that are new into management or thinking about it. You never want to be a boss hole or a tormentor. Coach and mentor is the direction you want to go.

Karen Shulman: 20:25

I think one of the keys that I learned in management and it was later in my career that it's so important. When you have people coming into the workplace these days, you know they bring their whole person. They are bringing not just their talents and their skills and their ability to work and to have relationships with people at work and get the work done. They also are bringing whatever's going on in their lives, probably outside of work as well.

Karen Shulman: 20:54

And so you as a manager, you are managing truly the whole person, and that is different. When I started managing whatever's going on in people's personal lives, very seldom did you know what that was. They kind of kept it to themselves and you basically dealt with the person that was the work person. I think it's very different these days, and one of the things that I learned later in my career is that it is very important.

Karen Shulman: 21:22

Even though you don't necessarily you know too, people know that you, as their manager, care about them as a human being. It makes all the difference in the world. It makes your job as a manager much, much, much easier, and so that does mean, yeah, you're going to have to hear some of the things that are going on in their personal lives, and maybe just listening is all you need to do. You don't necessarily have to give advice or know how to handle certain things. Sometimes people just need an ear, somebody to talk to. I know from the best managers that I've worked for and there are a few, but the ones that I really would have run through brick walls for were the ones that I knew cared about me as a human being and would have my back no matter what, and I think that that is so important to be a good manager in any organization.

John Broer: 22:32

I love that, Karen, you have to know that the whole person is showing up. So this again goes back to the old model that is, you know should be dead and gone of hey, that personal stuff you keep at the door, you, you know you walk in here, the personal stuff stays outside. That's, that's just an antiquated. You can't do that. That then.

John Broer: 22:54

In other words, we're I'm going to borrow this from somebody that's coming up in the podcast in the next several weeks Um, Comedy Wood is her name, and she talks about we want to focus on human beings, not human doings. I love that, and you were talking about that. Yes, these are human beings. Oh, that's, that is. That is absolutely so true, and with that, the idea of human beings and the whole person being there is the nature of feedback and how critical it is that you have a regular cadence. It doesn't have to be heavily structured or formal, but that interaction with your direct reports and Jason Lauritsen, we've talked about Jason so many times, had a great episode on the Bossh ole Chronicles about the check-in method, and he has a very simple but extraordinarily practical way of helping managers have those informal conversations just to touch base. Just to touch base, to let them know. To your point.

John Broer: 23:52

Karen, I'm here, I've got your back. I want to see how you're doing. I want to know if there's anything I can do to make your world easier, because that's really what a manager needs to do. All too often, managers get into their role thinking, "I have to give feedback, and you do sometimes, but I think what you are and you just said it you need to listen. You don't need to solve and, at the same time, you want to be getting feedback from them. You know what are the things that I'm doing that are helping you the most? What are the things that I'm doing that could be hindering you, that I need to change, which means getting your ego out of the way, doesn't it? Oh for sure.

John Broer: 24:31

Yeah.

Karen Shulman: 24:31

Yeah, it serves no purpose and it really does get in the way. Yeah, yeah.

John Broer: 24:35

Absolutely, absolutely, and it really does get in the way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I would be remiss, karen, if we and I love, I just love this. There's so many, there's so many facets to this and once again, I want to let you know that we are we're all in favor of people that want to get into management and be a supervisor, because you want to develop people, you have a real heart and a real passion for it and you have a skill set for it.

John Broer: 24:59

But none of this, none of this, is easy to do if you are trying to do it without data.

John Broer: 25:06

Okay, everybody knows. I mean, at Real Good Ventures, everything we do and how we equip our clients is based on objective data, because if you are doing this work as a manager or supervisor and you are just doing it from a gut feel or you are guessing about it, you will fail. I'm going to say it right there you will fail. You will not be the kind of manager that you could be if you were armed with objective data, by the way, objective data about yourself as well as the people around you in your sphere. And go in the show notes, because in our show notes, we always make it available to take our behavioral assessment and find out what your reference profile is, what your leadership DNA is. Go, do that and understand your superpowers. But also that kryptonite, the things you're bringing to a relationship that can either build it up or actually diminish it but objective data. I cannot stress enough how that needs to be the new way of work and how we reinvent the workplace and reinvent the manager.

Karen Shulman: 26:10

Well, that gets us out of the mini-me creating a team of just mini-mes.

John Broer: 26:16

Yeah.

Karen Shulman: 26:17

Because what is the easiest thing for you to do as a manager? Just manage people the way you like to be managed. That doesn't work for everybody. If you've got people that are wired just like you, great, it's probably going to be fabulous, but your chances of having a whole team like that are probably between slim and none. And so I often say now, if I had had the analytical data, the people data, when.

Karen Shulman: 26:42

I was a manager, I would have been a much more effective manager. Even in that first stint where I didn't have a lot of training. I would have been better at it because it would have at least given me some ideas on what I needed to do differently to match the needs of the people that reported to me. But I didn't have that. It would have made my life a lot easier. So I totally agree with you. I think that, especially for new managers to have the data, yeah, oh for sure.

John Broer: 27:13

There are so many ways to step into a management role and be more effective. Ways to step into a management role and be more effective, I had, I mean I was blessed with some great mentors. I also had some Boss holes. I mean I made Boss hole mistakes. I worked for some Boss holes who helped me understand what I didn't want to do.

John Broer: 27:29

But there are so many resources available to you that if you are being looked at to be a manager in your organization, if they are coming to you and tapping you on the shoulder and saying, hey, we want you to supervise this group, congratulations. I mean we're excited for you. We understand how wonderful this role can be and we also know how frustrating and challenging it can be, especially if you don't have the resources it can be, especially if you don't have the resources. So, Karen, I think about one having the right perspective. What have we talked about today? Having the right perspective and understanding what the role of the manager is, and that is a developer of other people. You're not a glorified individual contributor. If that's what they want, I think you need to reconsider accepting the position. Don't do this without training, coaching of some sort. Find a mentor of your own, a good mentor, obviously.

John Broer: 28:24

You've got this podcast. If you're listening to this right now, you have a treasure trove of material and content to help you do this a lot better. And, at the same time, when you take more of an outward perspective and that's what I get from your comments that these are human beings the whole person shows up. Your ego has to die. I mean it really does, because this isn't about you. You're no longer in the spotlight, you're the guide. You're not the hero anymore, and that's very powerful. So we don't want to discourage you. We want to encourage you, but also do so in a responsible way so that this new role can be very fulfilling. And, by the way, hopefully, you work for an organization that you give you jump into the supervisory or management role and you try it, and let's just say it's not for you. There is no shame in going back to being an individual contributor, wouldn't you agree with that? I mean, there's no shame whatsoever.

John Broer: 29:33

For sure, absolutely fall short of what I need to do for this team that I have the opportunity to go back into my previous role. There should never be any shame to stepping back into an individual contributor role. That's the kind of culture I want to work in, one that has that degree of flexibility, and unfortunately we've seen a lot of cultures where if you don't make it, man, it's like a walk of shame and you're gone. Yeah, you're gone, and that doesn't help anybody, ever, ever.

Karen Shulman: 30:03

The one thing that I want to say. I guess if when I look back on the positions that I had where I was a manager, I think the most take on new roles that, frankly, when I started I didn't even see that that would be a possibility necessarily to watch them blossom and to watch them take on bigger responsibility and move up the ladder, if you will, in the organization. I don't know that there's in management. To me that's the epitome, that's the icing on the cake for sure, and that made it all worthwhile for me.

John Broer: 30:51

Oh, absolutely, that's your success was through somebody else's success, and that's the definition, right there. Oh, my gosh. Well, Karen, thank you for that, or thank you for this, just again. I always find our conversations so enlightening and helpful and your experience, I know, is incredibly helpful for the Bossh ole Transformation Nation. I want to remind everybody out there, go into the show notes.

John Broer: 31:15

We are going to put a number of previous episodes that speak directly to this and we'll provide you with those milestones, those guideposts to making an informed and good decision about getting into management for the right reasons. And just remember, the Bossh ole Chronicles will be here as a way to always encourage people to stay out of the Bosshole Zone. And let me just also, as a side note I've done this before those of you that are working for non-Bossholes, that are working for amazing managers, please let them know you feel that way. Please let them know how much you appreciate the fact that they're not a Bosshole and that they are doing so many things right to elevate you and help you be a good individual, because that's important. We need to do that. Well, Karen, thanks, this was great. I really appreciate it.

Karen Shulman: 32:07

Thank you, John. It was fun as always. Look forward to the next time.

John Broer: 32:10

You got it All right, everybody. Thanks and we'll see you next time on the Bossh ole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Boss hole Chronicles and if you have a Boss hole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at my story@ the boss hole chronicles. com. Once again, my story@ the boss hole chronicles. com. We'll see you again soon.