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The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
Jill Hofmans - "Great job! Don't do it again..."
What happens when a seemingly supportive boss turns the tables with baffling criticism? Join us as we welcome Jill Hofmans, the Executive Director of the Conway Center for Family Business in Columbus, Ohio, who opens up about an unforgettable Bosshole® experience that shaped her leadership philosophy.
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Hey everybody out there in the Bossh ole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, and it is so good to have you back on another Tuesday and another installment of the Bossh ole Chronicles. Let me just say first of all that we are so thankful for all of our listeners out there, the way you are sharing and spreading the word about the Bossh ole Chronicles not only through the United States but around the world. The audience just continues to grow and we're so very appreciative of that. Today you're going to have a chance to meet Jill Hofmans and let me tell you a little bit about Jill. Jill is the executive director of the Conway Center for Family Business, located right here in Columbus, O hio. She has been doing this for well about the last six years almost as the executive director. She's been affiliated with the Conway Center for almost 12 and a half years. And let me go further by saying I was introduced to Jill by our good friends and colleagues at the University of Toledo Family Business Center and that family business center has been around for nearly 30 years. A and Real Good Ventures, w We are a professional service provider and friend of the UT Family Business Center doing work with their affinity groups, and it's really cool to learn how Jill and the team at the Conway Center are doing some remarkable things with family businesses as well. Us not only to share about the remarkable work being done at the Conway Center, but also how her very own Bossh ole experience helped to shape who she is today. So let's hear from Jill. The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm, helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Well, J ill, it is so nice to have you here on the Bossh ole Chronicles, w elcome.
Jill Hofmans:Well, thank you, J ohn, I'm happy to be here.
John Broer:I'm glad that the Bossh ole Transformation Nation is going to get to not only meet you but hear a little bit more about your story, your experiences. And, of course, they know from the intro that you and I met through a referral from the University of Toledo Family Business Center and you were the executive director of the Conway Center for Family Business here in Columbus, Ohio, a really remarkable organization, and go into the show notes. We're going to have some links to it there. But you're doing some great stuff there. When you and I met, I would say it was mid part of last year, late latter part of 2023, we were just talking and it's a fun thing to do. But when you learned about the podcast, you say, oh my gosh, I've got a bosshole story and it's like we're going to get you on the program. So we're going to talk a little bit more about what you've learned and your remarkable work with the Conway Center for Family Business, but let's start with the juicy stuff. Jill, You've got a B boss hole story and just take us through it. What happened?
Jill Hofmans:Happy to. So I was recently promoted into a position running a department. I'd been with the company for a few years. I didn't really interact with this guy too much because there was a buffer between me and him. So, we get promoted and he is now my boss. So a few months in, I run a meeting for the first time with a bunch of our stakeholders and it's a great meeting. I'm feeling really good. I'm a little nervous because it's the first time I'm running this meeting by myself. He's there, of course, so I feel like, okay, this went really well. I'm super stoked.
Jill Hofmans:So back to the office the next day he calls me. He says that meeting was incredible. You did the most amazing job with these people. They had never listened and paid attention to your predecessor the way they did to you. You were super open and transparent. So I'm like going, yeah, I got this. I am amazing. I knew I was so good.
John Broer:You're floating. You're floating at this point. Yes, okay.
Jill Hofmans:Then he says don't ever do it again.
John Broer:Are you serious?
Jill Hofmans:I said what? Well, yeah, I said excuse me what he said. You brought up that some of our partners had left the organization and then someone asked you why. And even though you handled it well and spun it to be a positive, you are creating the impression, when you tell them that people leave, that they're on a losing team and so now they think we're losers and now they're going to leave.
John Broer:So that's a lot to unpack. Okay, okay.
Jill Hofmans:Gob smacked, gob smacked. So, I said, oh, after I regained my composure and try not to curse him out or cry or hang up the phone or you know quit on the spot.
John Broer:Right.
Jill Hofmans:Oh well, I respectfully disagree.
John Broer:Okay.
Jill Hofmans:As you said, I was transparent. They were engaged in the meeting I said I feel like it's important as an authentic person for people to know the comings and goings. Yes, it wasn't a spin. It was well. Maybe they weren't engaged they weren't as engaged as much or they weren't. They didn't partner with us for the right reasons. But I really feel like it's important for for all the stakeholders to know where we are in the process. And he was like don't know, they think we're losers. You know the woman who did ask the question of me, like oh well, why did they leave? I was really curious because she said this is the most amazing partnership we've ever had. I can't believe someone would leave. Why would they leave? So I explained it in terms of they weren't engaged. So that was fun.
John Broer:Okay, Okay. So again came in, showered you with praise about how you did that meeting. People were more engaged than your predecessor and then smacked you with don't ever do it again, because they think we're on a losing team. Yeah, I'm sure you're like how did you go? How did you make that leap? Okay, a ll right.
John Broer:I think there are people out there empathizing with you right now.
John Broer:Go ahead, Jill.
Jill Hofmans:Sure, so it is go from like you were really transparent and they really responded to that to like don't, d Don't you dare. Okay. Needless to say, I didn't take his advice.
John Broer:You didn't take his advice. No, no, I know you well enough now, J ill, I understand where you're going. Okay, go ahead.
Jill Hofmans:But what it taught me was several things in my leadership journey. One, to then never ask permission and only ask forgiveness.
Jill Hofmans:I really learned with him that if I ever said, okay, here's what I'm going to talk, I'd give an agenda but I wouldn't say what was happening. Way better with him to ask forgiveness, which I don't think is a really great collaborative teamwork situation, but I had to do that. I got really thick skin really fast and I think as a leader, that's important. I love vulnerability and authenticity and I have empathy and all of that good stuff, but I also had to get a thick skin really quick to deal with him and other people in life, of course. I think the greatest lesson I learned as a leader was I was going to shield my team from him from that.
John Broer:Right, okay.
Jill Hofmans:So the way I did that was let's say, someone on my team made a big mistake. Yes, I would deal with them. We do a performance plan or you know, I'd help them work through it. But when it got to him, I was never going to let them suffer his vitriol because it was petty, egregious. So I learned that as the leader of that department it was all on me. Oh yeah, we worked great as a team, but I was going to throw myself under that bus before I would ever let them.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah.
Jill Hofmans:Which that was really extreme in that department. Now, in my role at the center, I work with the board and you know I don't have to be so suit of armor all the time and we can collaborate a little bit more at leadership levels. Um, but it really really fostered in me that I was there to protect my team and I think that's important as a leader.
John Broer:Oh, absolutely, and our listeners will recall a number of episodes where people, where managers, felt I needed to provide, w Well, they said I needed one, said I need to provide or run interference. We like to, you're protecting. We call that providing cover. Yeah, b Because we've had other stories where managers through their direct reports, right under the wheels, and it's like, oh yeah, this person's there for they did this wrong. They made this mistake. Yeah, I, you know they may not be on this team. No cover whatsoever, not coming to their defense and it's.
John Broer:It's also not trying to cover up actual egregious errors. It means you're the leader of this team and I'm willing to step into that role. So let's get back to this guy for just a second. Um, so I love what you said, that you really had to take the tact of asking for forgiveness rather than permission and that. No, that's not. That does not constitute a healthy, trusting relationship. However, did he try to throttle or or um edits or kind of get ahead of any messaging? I mean, did he say hey, Jill, before you have a meeting, I'd like to see your outline. I want to know, Did he try to do that? Did he try to insert himself that way?
Jill Hofmans:He was such a micromanager in a way that was yeah, he tried to insert himself in every way and I ignored him.
Jill Hofmans:I had a very contentious relationship from the get go. But I had my team in mind, the mission in mind, so it was like I would go and dance in circles with him and take a lot of shit from him just because I needed to do what I needed to do. He was also the the one who would anybody in the room it didn't matter if you were the secretary the director of the department, his partner if he wanted something dictated or drafted, he'd say write this down.
Jill Hofmans:So you'd write it down and then get it back to me, and then you'd send it to him. Then he would sit in the next meeting with it and edit it at one word, one or two words, one or two words, and hand it back to you and I'd say, dude, those were your words. Yeah.
John Broer:Fix it.
Jill Hofmans:Like one word, like controlling micromanaging, like what is that?
John Broer:Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I think we know this person pretty well. Yeah, wow, wow.
Jill Hofmans:Well, oka
John Broer:Well know this person pretty well. Yeah, wow, wow, well, okay, well, an how long was this? How long were you working? How long was this person? c I think I sucked it up for maybe three or four years ause I couldn't.
John Broer:Oh, that's actually that's a considerable amount of time. Okay, just for everybody's benefit. Our listeners know that in our world, everything we do is around behavioral data and objective data. Jill is a promoter, and a promoter is about connecting and teamwork and drawing out the very best in people. And for somebody to try to control you for three or four years you felt that there's no question. You felt that I mean just mentally, physically, emotionally.
Jill Hofmans:I got to imagin I Awful.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah it was.
Jill Hofmans:It was really hard, but I so much believed in my team and the work we were doing that I thought, okay, I can, I can. Or or foolishly hoping, oh, this will get better, or I'll kill him with kindness, or you know, I have so much, whatever, yeah, no.
John Broer:Okay, I got it Now. Did he move on or did you move on?
John Broer:I moved on. Okay, got it. You know, that's the part that for us, because you started to help us understand a little bit more of the lessons learned. I want to go further into that because it certainly defined you. We want to look at these boss whole stories as not the things that are crushing our spirit and destroying careers. But we're actually growing from it and fortunately we've had a lot of those stories. But that's one of those things where here you are. My guess is that your team really valued how you helped them grow and develop them and now you're gone.
Jill Hofmans:And you're gone because this boss hole there was just no, this person was just not no-transcript, not going to compromise on what I thought was right for the team, the stakeholders, our partners, and that I really felt like authenticity does rule the day. I'm all about relationships. I really felt like authenticity does rule the day. I'm all about relationships very relational, not transactional. So I was so proud of myself to not let him crush that in me but actually sort of watered that seed. So I am fierce about being transparent and authentic.
John Broer:Okay.
Jill Hofmans:In a very, but not in like a in your face kind of means. You know that can go a boss whole way, right?
John Broer:When I was totally authentic.
Jill Hofmans:That I think, integrity and that how it just solidified, how important that is to me as a person and how I show up every day for teams and organizations.
John Broer:Yeah.
Jill Hofmans:There was the thick skin, which I think leaders need we get a lot of stuff thrown at us, that the fair or not fair. When you're in a leadership role, you have to deal with it whether you make it or not, so I couldn't stomp my feet and cry and say but no fair, you know, you have to be a grownup, which I love being a grownup, but you have to be a grownup.
John Broer:No, it's true though. That's true, okay, okay.
Jill Hofmans:Yeah. And the other one was to uh, I don't want to say protect my team at all costs, but yeah, I mean that's part of it, because you're nothing without the people around you Right. I can't do the work I do all by myself in a vacuum, you know.
Jill Hofmans:So I know it's important to foster good and and also to model for them that, yeah, don't let the turkeys get you down, yeah, you know they would see this or you know the ramifications of it, or the implications and I was modeling for them that we can still be professional, we can still really do our job, even if they're not great support systems out there.
John Broer:So no, no doubt, no doubt, well, I. Oftentimes we talk about when we do our job, even if they're not great support systems out there. So, no, no doubt, no doubt, well, I. Oftentimes we talk about when we do our leadership, um, leadership academies, and we're working with new manager, newer, existing managers. Uh, one of the things we always talk about is management is not a popularity contest. If you are, if you're getting into the, you know this, you know. If you're getting into this, hoping to be admired and loved and cherished by your people, you are in it for the wrong reasons.
John Broer:You will be miserable and at the same time, part of your job is to be that buffer, to provide that cover or insulation for your team and a lot of times they don't see the shit that you're taking the pressure and at the same time, you're being transparent and honest with them to the degree that you're able to. I mean, there's stuff that you learn as a manager from upper management that you can't convey and communicate. It's not time for that yet, but I can at least tell them listen, I will share with you what I'm able to share. Have to hold in confidence right now until this is developed a little bit more. That's a hard thing to do and you're getting pressure from both ends. So integrity, thick skin, watch out for your team and literally truly appreciate the gifts and the talents that are on that team and help to nurture them. So all of that and that's awesome, jill. So all of that, plus other experiences obviously, have led you to this role with the Conway Center for Family Business. I've had the opportunity You've been kind enough to invite me to some of the meetings in 23 and 2024. It's just a really cool organization, people very much committed to and, again, family businesses are unique We've done a lot of work with family businesses.
John Broer:That's the central focus of what you do. Unique We've done a lot of work with family businesses. That's the central focus of what you do. Tell us a little bit more about I'm going to frame it in the way of bosshole prevention and bosshole intervention with, as we like to say, but what? What? Tell us a little bit more about the work that you're doing for family businesses and how you're helping family business owners and people in it stay out of the bosshole zone. What are some of the things you're offering?
Jill Hofmans:Yeah, so it is unique. What we offer here is that we focus really on that family business dynamic which you know, running a business is hard.
Jill Hofmans:Running a business with family is harder. You get to go to work with the people that you love the most but also who know exactly which button to push. So a lot of the work we do is educational programming around how to navigate those dynamics. I think the heartbeat of what we do is our peer group programs and that's where bosshole intervention and prevention comes in. So I am fortunate enough to facilitate our C-level peer groups. So I have a couple CEO peer groups, some rising CEO peer groups, so they're eminently next in line or have just taken over the family business and in those spaces that we've created very nurturing and collaborative small groups, they check each other.
Jill Hofmans:If someone starts off on my employee this, or my brother that or my dad that. You know they get checked by their peers, and I think especially at that rising CEO level where still there might be some issues of entitlement, imposter syndrome, like all of that all woven into this mass of insecurity and arrogance. They get checked. And I think it's a beautiful thing to see that we're not only helping the businesses thrive, but these families get better and smarter and less boss holy.
John Broer:Right.
Jill Hofmans:Yeah, because they all, all of our family business leaders have boss stories about their parents or their uncle, uncle, oh sure Grandparents. So we're helping. I really feel like we're impacting, especially at that rising CEO level, to break that sort of generational curse.
John Broer:Yes, yes.
John Broer:So it's awesome to watch and the dynamics are so unique. I mean my father, his grandfather, we had a family business. It was such that my father said, no, I want you to go out, and actually I'm really glad he did. I'm really glad he did, and it was in retail, tough, tough in retail in Northwest Ohio. But in our work at Real Good Ventures over the years we've done a considerable amount of work with family businesses and what's unique is when you're working with the Gen 2 or second generation, third generation, and the misnomer. Well, first of all, they can't go home to the dinner table and not be there with the same dynamics. I mean, it's like sometimes we're on vacation together or we have a discipline of doing separate vacations. It's just the family tie is there?
John Broer:What's so funny and I'm sure you've seen this is the I think, the misnomer that what's the old saying that well, the uh, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Oh, no, actually, the apple falls sometimes in a different pasture. Because the founder, in our world we talk about behavioral wiring and behavioral analytics totally different, but they think simply because there's a bloodline, there's a similarity, and that couldn't be further from the truth and be further from the truth. And I would imagine, when you expose that not expose it but when you reveal that or unpack it it's like, oh my gosh, I'm totally different than my father, my grandfather, my uncle, and I'm going to lead differently. That's okay, but it's a dynamic that needs to be addressed.
Jill Hofmans:You've got to be running into that all the time, all the time. And especially, you know, family businesses are much better than our general culture about having women run the businesses. So there's that whole thing to unpack when it's a dad and a daughter, or you know, a mom and a daughter. Yeah, they're very different. I mean not even apples, but oranges sometimes.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah, and that's okay, that's okay, absolutely.
Jill Hofmans:We navigate a lot of that. One of the things I think too for some boss hole prevention and often intervention is assessment. So, like the PI, super helpful for people to know who they are, where they're coming from and where everybody else is. So we really try to do that a lot with our folks to like do some introspection, figure your own shit out before you start, you know, and I think that's we don't talk about that enough.
Jill Hofmans:I think in general culture especially, in the family business, just like you're in the business and here we go. Um, but let's figure it out.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah, uh, we, you know this wasn't. We didn't come to this conclusion. This was from a Stanford uh study that self-awareness is the number one competency for effective leadership. If you, if you can't do that hard, introspection and self-awareness is the number one competency for effective leadership. If you can't do that hard, introspection and self-awareness have that converse. It's not that part one, but part two is what is my impact on other people? So let's go back to your boss hole. Talk about somebody that could do with a little bit of self-awareness and introspection, about your impact on other people and just basic skills of developing other people. What a difference that would make for so many relationships, but in this case, family businesses, wow. So, jill, what's on the horizon for the Conway Center for Family Business? What are some things that are exciting you for this year and the years to come?
Jill Hofmans:So our programming is pretty stable, but what I'm really looking forward to is we're going to launch a strategic planning session with our board, so I'm really excited about growth opportunities and how we can impact even more family businesses in that area. I'm excited to really talk about my own succession planning because you know, I'm probably not going to be there forever.
Jill Hofmans:So, you know, an organization can't run just on the force of someone's personality. So I'm really excited and I think that's really going to show our members too that we put our money where our mouth is. You know we talk to them all the time about succession, succession, succession. I don't have a successor.
John Broer:If.
Jill Hofmans:I go out and get hit by a bus today. Yeah.
John Broer:So I'm excited.
Jill Hofmans:I mean it sounds weird to be excited to talk about your exit, but I'm excited to launch that and get on that journey and then have some synergies with our members who are doing the same things in their families.
John Broer:You know what? I think that there is real gold in just that simple comment, jill, that you are thinking about succession. In an organization that services and supports family businesses, succession planning is something that, in a family business, is really tough to talk about. Sometimes. We've worked with a couple of organizations where the chief person, he or she, doesn't even want to have that conversation. I'll be around for you know, three to five more years and yeah, we say you can either get hit by a bus or win the lottery, or decide you're going to, you're going to live in another part of the world and and do something else. What does the company do? So I think you're modeling the sort of thing that I'm sure family businesses are realizing. If we don't do this, it's going to be really really tough for us to survive.
Jill Hofmans:moving forward, Well right, succession happens, no matter what you might as well plan for it. That's right, I mean it happened.
John Broer:It's going to happen.
Jill Hofmans:So why not plan for it and position an organization to be in the strongest possible way to continue their legacy? Absolutely, position an organization to be in the strongest possible way to continue their legacy.
John Broer:So that's what I'm excited about. That's cool. That is so cool. Well, listen, this has been so great and I want to remind our listeners, go into the show notes because you'll find Jill's contact information. Her LinkedIn profile will be in there, a link to the Conway Center for Family Business. If you are a family business in central Ohio and you are not, I don't see how you wouldn't be aware of the Conway Center for Family Business. But if this is the first time you're hearing about it, check it out, because what they offer, the peer-to-peer input, that kind of knowledge, those kinds of resources, are so valuable for really just shaping what the future is going to look like for your organization. But check that out and, jill, many, many thanks. On behalf of the Boss Hole Transformation Nation. It was just great having you here.
Jill Hofmans:Thank you so much, John. It's always a pleasure to be in your presence, so thank you oh that's very kind.
John Broer:All right, we'll see you next time on the Boss Hole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Boss Hole Chronicles and if you have a Boss Hole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystoryatthebossholechroniclescom. Once again, mystoryatthebossholechroniclescom. We'll see you again soon.