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The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
Bill Gallagher - Scaling Up Your Leadership (Part 2)
Have you ever wondered why a stellar resume might not translate into success at your company? Join us in Part 2 of our discussion with Bill Gallagher as he illuminates this mystery through the "head, heart, and briefcase" framework, offering compelling narratives that reveal the struggles leaders face when talent doesn't mesh with organizational values. Listen closely as we discuss the delicate art of recognizing a poor fit and the transformational potential that comes with addressing it gracefully—for both the individual and the company.
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If you're tuning in, you're getting ready for part two of our conversation with Bill Gallagher, the host of the Scaling Up Business podcast and also an incredibly experienced business coach. Part two will take us further into some of Bill's experiences and stories, just to help us understand what leaders, managers, supervisors need to do to stay out of the bosshole zone. So let's not waste any more time. Let's get back to Bill. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
John Broer:Before we hit record, we were talking about some various stories you have, and one, Bill, really just stood out for me. It's the CEO of the tech company that he had trouble firing a person that had, as you say, a great resume but just didn't get it, and the reason that jumped out for me. If you don't mind sharing that, you know we talk about head, heart and briefcase here at the Boss hole Chronicles, or that's the work we do at Real Good Ventures about. The head is where the behavioral cognitive data live. That's what our analytics help us understand. Heart is all about core values and passion and your sort of cultural wiring. But the briefcase is the resume, and that just jumped out at me. So what's that story?
Bill Gallagher:There's probably half a dozen similar stories like that, I think the one that we were talking about there. We had a fantastic resume and all the right skills, but a person whose value set, whose approach to culture, decision-making, all kinds of things, was just off from the rest of the company. It was pretty apparent within a couple months of the person's hiring that they just weren't going to work out. And in private conversations we're like, yeah, this is a bad fit. So I did for the next nine months various things to try to help them go. You guys, let's break here. You guys go take a walk together and see if you can appreciate each other. I trained them in deeper listening skills from the work of Mark Golston and others to understand each other and where they're coming from and try to. Anyway, it didn't make any difference. They have fundamentally different views on the direction of the company, the approach to business strategy, the way to operate things and make decisions, and no amount of really terrific blue chip resume was going to make a difference. And they struggled with it. And people struggle with it because they feel like, oh, it's being so hard and I'm not being accepting and nurturing and whatever.
Bill Gallagher:But there's a point where you're really clear. This person, or you should be clear if you are honest with yourself. This person is never going to win in this environment, right, or this job, like. Whatever it can't happen.
Bill Gallagher:I don't have the environment of the job for this person and every minute after that decision that you don't proactively begin to separate them, you are damaging both them and the company. So if I hold you in a job that you can't ever win in and I know it maybe you can't see it yet or can't face the reality of it I'm wasting your life right, like so firing you will be probably traumatic. Like many people don't have the means to successfully navigate that without financial hardship. They don't have sufficient savings. So there is a stress and strain when you let somebody go, but ultimately you create an opportunity for them to find a place where they could actually win. And if you could let them go with dignity and respect, even if they stole from you, you could give someone human dignity and some respect and encourage them to work and find the next place and so on. Like then they have a fighting chance to find a place where they could be an A- I kind of believe that everybody could be an A player. Somewhere I agree, and if it's not, with you, then they need to move on.
Bill Gallagher:But also your whole team is like oh my God, we have to suffer that jerk every day. It's not that person fundamentally is a jerk. You couldn't cut them open and find jerk under the skin. They don't belong there. Their jerkiness is a function of their bad fit to the job and the company is a function of their bad fit to the job and the company.
John Broer:Right, amen, exactly. Oh my gosh. I just as we say nobody is born to be a Boss hole, nobody. I don't think anybody seeks out to really be a horrible manager or supervisor. I think that's just either they, like you said, they're in the wrong role. We took a great individual contributor, put him into a management role. Shouldn't have done it. But I love your comment, though, about a blue chip resume. I remember having a conversation with a CEO and he said this person it was the same scenario, you know we hired this person look where they went to school, look where they worked, you know, top flight MBA and put him, put this person in a situation that they were not wired to deal with. And he said but he's got an MBA. And I said, yeah, that that's the briefcase, that, all that's that. That tells you that this person is has, you know, a wonderful set of credentials, but it doesn't say how he will perform or she will perform, whatever the case may be or environment.
Bill Gallagher:It could be that they did that once and they can't do it again. They're in a different place in life, or who knows Right.
John Broer:And so do them the courtesy of you know, let them go, let them be free, go ahead, love on them and let them go. Give them some runway. Like you're genius to say that I hope people are listening.
Sara Best:I hope people are listening, you don't. It's not like, doesn't have to be some awful and it always is. I've never heard of an organization that parted ways with somebody in a healthy, you know, let's make this easier for you kind of way. I think that's powerful and don't go.
Bill Gallagher:I don't even think, I'm not even saying you necessarily have to do a whole lot for them. Sure, I had a woman who was stealing from our company some years ago and I figured it out and in a very elaborate scheme, and and I called her in as soon as I figured it out, I, within the next hour, I called her in and I let her go and I said, listen, I'm just heartbroken about all this and I'm sorry, I have to let you go, and I realize it's about to become disruptive in your life and I am not going to pursue criminal charges against you, but I suggest that you do the work.
Bill Gallagher:And here's the thing I don't think you're an evil person, whatever you did here and why. I don't even need to know all of it like or why or any of it. I know there's a place for you in a better future and I and I really wish you the best. It's just not here. Yeah and um, you know it was like and, but literally I'm like you, f and this or that. You robbed me like thousands of dollars, like you know I I'm, but I can also, I also have in this person. I don't know what led them astray and, to be honest, I don't want to get into the whole story of it. I just know that it's time to make a change, but I could be like, have regard for them as a human being.
Sara Best:Absolutely it ends now, but I I hope you find a better place and you and you wish her the best, yeah in the cases where you know it's not malfeasance and other horrible things, it's just a goodness of fit issue, or the complexity of the job has now outweighed the person's capabilities. That's what I'm talking about. All of a sudden, people are bad characters and we're making it about they're lazy. I knew they weren't up for the challenge and no, they're actually. They've been outmatched and it's unfair and unkind not to address that.
Sara Best:The other thing I was going to say is don't then complain about lack of trust or lack of psychological safety if you're not addressing or confronting those issues where there's a disparity in performance or one person on the leadership team is sucking all the air out of the room or making it difficult for everybody else. You don't get to bellyache about no trust and no collaboration if, in fact, there's no credibility in your addressing these things. You're not holding people responsible I don't even like the word accountability. You're not holding people responsible for a set, you know, a standard of behavior that's on you.
Bill Gallagher:I think when you get to that place, if you could really get there in your bones, then firing people could be easier. Right, and that's a big challenge for people. They don't want to confront that. They don't want to be the bearer of bad news. They don't want you to hate them. They don't want to get in a fight. They like the whole world of that. Plus, underneath it all is confronting that, that we made a mistake in hiring you or having you around too long, right, so there's all that going on, but, but I've gotten really good at it and I and I have been good because, I'm like wait a minute I get that clarity and then I need to confirm, like do I have the facts, is this accurate?
Bill Gallagher:I'm like okay, and then is there anything foundational to lay in, like defensively, like, are there things to lock in or calls to make or anything to make sure, do I need to check with my labor lawyer, like all the surrounding thing? But then the minute after that I can call you in and say it's time to go and I'm sorry to bear the bad news. This is about to be a difficult time, time to go, and I'm sorry to bear the bad news. This is about to be a difficult time. I think I hope that there could be a better future for you and then I could go tell my team I had to let somebody go today.
John Broer:I can't say a whole lot more about it, but it's going to be better for everyone and it's really tough and I'm sorry to do it but we can get through it together, I love that I'm going to go out on a limb here and say though, with your experience, my guess well, your philosophy is that when we reach that point, it should not come as a surprise. I think you're the kind of leader who clearly defines expectations. We're going to establish metrics, we're going to give you a runway to be successful here, and we're going to stay in communication about it. And we're going to stay in communication about it, but by the time that event takes place, I can't believe that. There isn't justification, if you will, or it comes as a total shock.
Bill Gallagher:Does that make sense? I think that sounds better than I am. I think that's how I see you, Bill, thank you. We get busy and we get working on other things and other priorities and then we neglect something over in some realm and we don't necessarily give them timely feedback that things are going astray. So I think, even if you're halfway decent, it can sometimes come as like oh, a wake up right that things have gone off. You know anytime.
Bill Gallagher:If you, if you build up like, if you build up a lot of stuff into quarterly reviews or annual reviews, it's really people are like how am I doing? Am I getting a raise? But if they don't already know because you aren't doing regular feedback, weekly, biweekly, then you're making a big mistake. Sure you know? Yeah, if, if you don't know how your boss feels about you, just because they smile, they could be busy with something else, right, you gotta know where you stand. And and if you are a boss, then you really want to let people know more proactively beyond like hey, have a nice listen, how are you doing with your job? And like, let's talk about it for a minute, because I'm not sure or I have some concerns, let's work them out before they become a big problem.
John Broer:Yep, yep. And today's managers need to be so dialed in, and we've talked about reinventing the role of the manager for the last couple of years. The old command and control. It just is not working anymore. We can own abandon it completely, but managers are the developers, the coaches, the builders of people, and if that's not who you are, maybe that's not the role for you. But, Bill, let me ask you this we're coming into, this is going to go out to the Bossh ole Transformation Nation in the fourth quarter of 2024. We're around the holidays. This is the time where people start to maybe slow down a little bit, but maybe start to think about the new year. So, given all of your experience and what you are seeing right now in the marketplace, what is your advice for the CEOs, the business leaders, the managers out there? What do they need to be thinking?
Bill Gallagher:About for 2025? Well, I mean, I could compare like two kind of stories that set the foundation for it. Let me talk about the negative one first. So I had a CEO and we're in the middle of a transaction, we're bringing in new investors and a new CEO and we're doing a transition and the person had been extremely hands-on in their hands and everything. And then they brought in a new CEO who didn't have their history but was even more hands-on and more micromanaging of stuff. But now we've got thousands of people in this company at this point and the frustration in the private conversations that I had with the C team and the next level leaders was so palpable. Like they all were like, oh my God, let me do my job. Be clear. Who is it. Get out of my world? Like stop. And I could even see it as a coach being told how I'm going to run exercises. And oh, this person or that person did it like that. I'm like, yeah, I'm not that person, I'm going to do it differently. Like getting in everybody's business all the time and I'm like, wow, they're really going to struggle with stuff as long as this keeps up. And they continued to struggle with some times the change still went through, but the breaks on the company. It's taken years to start to settle out and to make that transition, when it could have happened a lot faster.
Bill Gallagher:Contrast, I think, with my own personal kind of experience, and that is that I was forced to make a change. So I had come in, I'd taken over as CEO of a company, I ran it, I built or updated the strategy, a new BHAG and refreshed values and brand promises, all kinds of good things like that. We operated on plans, we had dashboards and scorecards, people had their metrics, we had a regular meeting cadence of well-run meetings, that kind of thing. And yet I still couldn't get away. Right, I still couldn't, I was still involved. I couldn't go away for a week to a trade show convention, something like that, without being on the phone and email the whole week, right, okay. So, and that's very typical of North American business, that kind of like being deeply tied to everything until you die or get fired or retire, right, right, so, anyway, that's how it was for me.
Bill Gallagher:And yet, though, I, we, we hit the point where we looking at the year ahead and thinking about the year to come and how we were and the kids and all that we realized, oh wait a minute, this is that time, when the kids are 10 to 13, where we said we were going to take serious time off. So we always said, like before we had kids when we first got married 10 to 13 is like a magic age when you could travel and they appreciate stuff. So we're going to take like year off, whole summers off in that time frame. And so now we were there and I couldn't get away, and yet I had all those structures in place, right. So we're like, okay, we're going to go away next summer, we're going to be gone all summer with the kids.
Bill Gallagher:And the business was now in a period of rapid growth. So I started saying about 10 months out listen, next summer I'm going to be gone. How are you going to deal with this problem? Whatever they brought to me in the moment when I'm gone, what will you do when I'm not here? And then I kept little sticky notes across the desk from where I sat and I changed them up about every week and I just kept saying how are you going to deal with this when I'm not here and what are you going to do when I can't solve this, and what do you think you should do and do when I can't solve this, and what do you think you should do and tell me more about the problem? What ideas do you have? So I stopped answering and telling people what to do.
Bill Gallagher:So, the shift. The structures were there, there were clear accountability and scorecards, but I still had my hand. I hadn't passed the baton. It was as if I'm running a relay. I'd given them hold of the baton, but I was still running alongside them correcting their run for their lap.
Bill Gallagher:So that is the thing that we do again and again Pass the baton and then see how this one goes, give them a little coaching. I mean, you want to still shout out to them or do whatever. You want to stay connected, but I had to spend 10 months shifting my style of leadership and theirs to own the thing. So I would say, more than anything else, if you want a really big company that does big things in the world you can't possibly have your hand in all of it and to have maximum impact to create a global kind of a movement, then you're going to really be hands-off, leading leaders of leaders who lead leaders, kind of thing, right. So you're contributing at best an idea, a set of values, a vibe and to do that really well, you've got to empower people and they've got to stumble a little bit and pick up their own baton, and you know you have to have a little room for that.
John Broer:Yeah, that sounds so familiar. Actually, when you said let go of the baton, sarah, you and I probably thought about the same person to whom we would like to send this episode. Yep. But what I love about that, Bill, is in our world of behavioral wiring there are people that will are very comfortable delegating or giving away little things tasks but giving up actual control and authority is virtually impossible. And that's what you took 10 months to really relinquish that control, and that's not easy. I would imagine you had some trepidation through that process.
Bill Gallagher:I had budget approval, there were some things that I still had some control over and they they sent me reports and I could see they're doing a good job, they're getting it done right and you did go away.
John Broer:You did go away for the summer.
Bill Gallagher:We ended up going away just for a month, right, we? But we spent a month in Italy and I was not on the phone at all dealing with anything.
John Broer:That's awesome. That's awesome that's powerful do you know how many people are listening to this going? I would do anything to get two or three weeks completely away. A month is a, is a run, is a retreat.
Bill Gallagher:Sailing, we went driving around, we had great dinners, there was a lot of wine and limoncello drunk there was was you didn't have.
John Broer:Did you get any Aperol spritzes when you were there? I'm not a big Aperol spritzer, oh, okay, okay, cause that's all we saw when we were there.
Sara Best:To the point you made earlier, Bill the way you move, so goes with it in your world. So I mean a hundred percent responsibility means that if I want this to be different, I'm going to need to take some actions to make that different, which is exactly what you did. That's powerful, good advice.
Bill Gallagher:So the first thing is take a look in the mirror and then the next thing is start to pass the baton and deal with the person who doesn't pass the baton. Deal with that person, right? That's something about you in the mirror that's going on, right? So micromanaging two hands on that whole world, yep.
Sara Best:Bill, what's up next for you? You're into so many cool things. What are we looking for?
Bill Gallagher:Well, I fly to Utah this week. I think I'm in Arizona the next week. I've got eight cities and two countries more to visit before the holidays hit.
John Broer:Oh my gosh.
Bill Gallagher:We're going a little too much this year. But you know I'm like working with cool teams in the world. We're leading great workshops and helping people level up and stuff like that. So you know our show continues to grow, the workshops grow, our private clients grow. Those are the biggest things.
Bill Gallagher:I also started something, a little thing new that I can. It's just I don't. It seems so simple, it's almost like a non-event. But I noticed that all these people have all these kinds of like offers and programs and things like. We have programs and offers and stuff too, but I'm like it just all feels like a giant manipulation. So I just started doing this thing and we're going to see how it goes. I'll run it for the rest of the year, first call, free.
Bill Gallagher:So the coaching experience doesn't start with a strategy session where we assess yours. No, I just start in coaching and let's see if I can produce any value for you or if whatever. It is great. If that's all there is forever, fine, and if you want to do more you can ask me about it. But I am through doing all the sort of gimmicky, manipulative kinds of things and I'm just going to get as much free coaching time as I can between now and the end of the year and my assistant will just keep booking it up and then we'll see if we keep that up going. But like no sell, no nothing, we'll just see what it is.
John Broer:You could ask for more if you want it, but like you know, first one's free I'm your neighborhood drug dealer well, I want to remind all of our listeners go into the show, yeah, go into the show notes and I will have all of Bill's information, the Scaling Up Business podcast, his, his website, his offerings. So I think you probably know by now. If you want to get on his schedule, you better act soon.
Sara Best:If you want your first hit, you better get on there. There's always time.
Bill Gallagher:My assistant will fill me up in all the suitable times. There'll be something if you really want it.
John Broer:But yeah, yeah, well people should take advantage of that. But, Bill, listen. First of all, thank you again for having us on your podcast. It has been a pleasure having you here. I just hope that we can continue to stay in touch and see the cool stuff that you're doing. Thank you so much.
Bill Gallagher:It's a pleasure to have you on our show. It's great to be on your show. I love sharing these stories. I love doing this work with people. It is truly gratifying to be able to do this kind of work, to have the impact on it, because all the things that happen out in our clients' work, I feel like is I did something about that right, like it's a multiplying and I don't have to be there every day, absolutely.
Sara Best:So true, keep up the great work, bill. We'll see you next time on the Bossh ole Chronicles.
John Broer:Everybody stay well. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bossh ole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here, and if you have your own Bossh ole story that you want to share with the Bossh ole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles. com. Again, mystoryatthebossholechroniclescom. Again, mystory@thebossholechronicles. com. We'll see you next time.