Jonelle Massey - The Miseducation of Empathy

The modern mental health conversation has taken a concerning turn, according to clinical therapist Jonelle Massey. Rather than building resilience, we've defined wellbeing as the absence of discomfort and the avoidance of challenges—a definition that ultimately leaves us ill-equipped for life's inevitable difficulties.  Drawing from her experiences as a former D1 athlete and her work with leaders across various fields, Massey presents a compelling alternative: embrace adversity as the training ground for emotional strength.

• Click HERE to order Jonelle's book, The Miseducation of Empathy
• Click HERE to visit Jonelle's website
• Click HERE for Jonelle's LinkedIn profile

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Therapist Janell Massey
• 2:42 Redefining Mental Health Conversations
• 7:42 From Avoidance to Emotional Agility
• 15:08 Snowplow Parenting and Leadership Challenges
• 22:02 Emotional Agility and Empathetic Connection
• 27:11 The Miseducation of Empathy Explained
• 31:10 Therapeutic Leadership Coaching

Transcript

John Broer: 0:06

Well, welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bossh ole Transformation Nation to another installment of the Bossh ole Chronicles. This is your co-host, which means guess what? Guess who else is here, Sara. Sara Best, and she's going to tell us who our guest is today.

Sara Best: 0:20

Hey, John, nice to see you today on The Bossh ole Chronicles. Today our guest is a nationally certified clinical therapist. She is a former D1 athlete and she's married to a D1 coach. She's like surrounded by athletes her children and she works with athletes and leaders. Her name is Jonelle Massey and she's also written a really powerful book called "The Miseducation of Empathy. But our subject matter today might just blow people's minds. We entered into this conversation we want to talk about mental health, but Jonelle has kind of a state of things today around kids and leaders in mental health that I think we all should probably tune into and be aware of, along with some deeper understanding of why we've arrived at this place and what we can do about it.

John Broer: 1:08

That sounds like an amazing topic. Let's jump in.

Sara Best: 1:11

Let's do it.

John Broer: 1:16

The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.

Sara Best: 1:39

Jonelle Massey. Welcome to The Bossh ole Chronicles.

Jonelle Massey: 1:42

Thank you for having me.

Sara Best: 1:44

Yeah, it's really good to have you, especially with focus right now on mental health, and let's just agree that it's not a new focus, it's just something that we are maybe talking about more frequently on the podcast here. Our listeners hopefully will be tuned into and already maybe even responding to signs and symptoms and challenges they might be experiencing with mental health, especially leaders. But, Jonelle, we reached out to you as an expert, a nationally certified clinical therapist and someone who has a great deal of experience working with leaders, athletes, organizations of all types and sizes, to help our listeners debunk any myth they might have about what do we mean by mental health.

Jonelle Massey: 2:33

Well, that's a good question. I'm glad you asked me that my colleagues and I are in an up war, so to speak, because we love the fact that there's a lot of awareness around mental health, and that's kind of the thing that we've been trying to do for decades is bring awareness and also look at the stigma of mental health. And so, with those two things, we're glad that there is awareness and mental health is being talked about. We're also worried about how it's being communicated and who's driving the wheel of the conversation, and we're noticing that we are defining mental health nowadays as the absence of uncomfortable feelings and the avoidance of adversity, and so, unfortunately, I don't think we're going to be in a space of building capacity and resiliency if we're just trying to get rid of the things that would help build those things, which happens to be adversities and, a lot of times, uncomfortable feelings and emotions.

Sara Best: 3:49

I had never heard that before. The avoidance of uncomfortable feelings, and what was the second part?

Jonelle Massey: 3:56

And just the absence of adversity, the absence of adversities.

Sara Best: 4:00

Yeah, Wow. And you know, in my mind, just preparing for our conversation this morning, I was kind of going in a totally different direction, even reflecting on my own experience of the last number of years, most recently feeling overwhelmed, uncertain, in many cases ill-equipped, and then totally thinking something's wrong with me. And I wonder if other people think that? And then, if they do, how do they make sense of what you just said?

Jonelle Massey: 4:29

Yeah, well, in a lot of Instagram posts and a lot of influencers and folks who are very interested in the topic of mental health, is telling folks to run away from anything that causes you to feel all the things you just mentioned overwhelmed, uncertain, all of those things. Ill-equipped, yeah, yeah. Rather than leaning in and stretching and trying to find ways to navigate those very appropriate, normal human emotions and that's the conversation we're not having about mental health is that we are to look at these as opportunities to stretch and build capacity.

John Broer: 5:15

Can I ask a really quick question, Jonelle? Because the avoidance when I hear about avoidance behavior, part of that is those are one of the two pitfalls of an unsafe environment or a lack of psychological safety, and I know you talk about that in your work or you've addressed that. So in other words, people either they're being instructed to avoid that and or they're not equipped to do that, and so it's sort of a double-edged sword. By avoiding it you're not building that muscle and it doesn't improve the situation.

Jonelle Massey: 5:53

I just think that this discovery of you know where are we going was a little bit easier because, as you mentioned, I work with athletes, and so athletes are always around adversity. You know, in order to win, they've got to get through a barrier, someone who's trying to stop them from succeeding, and so that's the space that I've always been in in helping athletes figure out how to navigate their emotions. Athletes figure out how to navigate their emotions, and what I love to talk about is emotional agility combined with empathy, and figuring out those ways to kind of stay in neutral in order to get that prefrontal cortex thinking and what's a way to solve the problem in the wind. And I don't think it should be any different for leaders, or any different for any type of industry or for us who don't dribble a ball or skate on ice.

Sara Best: 6:52

I love that and agree wholeheartedly. Our listeners already know you were a very successful D1 athlete. You played basketball in college. Your own lived experience through performance and meeting high expectations and high demand would attest to your approach here. If people are getting the message to run away from the uncomfortable feelings and the adversities, where are they being instructed to go? Like, what are they supposed to do?

Jonelle Massey: 7:22

For example, mindfulness and those kinds of strategies. I think even then those are kind of twisted in a way to where avoidance is in the front. So let's remove ourselves from toxic environments first and then go and be one with ourselves and be able to calm my nervous system down, rather than doing those things in the midst of adversity. And so even with strategies that we're hearing about, they're not being explained to do that in the midst of chaos, or even not even chaos, but just minor stressors. And that's really the concern is that we're going to look up a decade from now and people are not going to learn how, they're not going to know how to deal with conflict. We're going to be in these silos, living life, just scared to go out and do anything that might include some uncomfortability or some type of adversity.

John Broer: 8:27

So I'm going to ask a slightly different question. I mean, Sara was talking about what are they doing or where are they going, but what is the origin of this? And first of all, is it something relatively unique and new. Although I can't believe in the world of human behavior and those variables that it's necessarily new. But what's the origin? And the other part too is is there anything that is somewhat generational about this? Because there are five generations in the workplace right now, and of course, we always talk about helping managers avoid the B oss hole Zone and we'll get to that in a second. But origins, and are we seeing it in a particular group of people?

Jonelle Massey: 9:07

I think that, as far as origin, I think when we, you know, we want to mention COVID all the time, but I think there is some validity to us being in a space where, all of a sudden, things were out of our control, and so now we've gone from one extreme to make sure that everything is in our control, and so we're going to control our environment so that we are not faced with surprises or unpredictability or adversity or challenges. I think that's one source of origin. When you touched on generations, again it's going from one extreme to the other.

Jonelle Massey: 9:46

So when I think about my parents, who are in their late 70s and very different parenting style, where it was like children are to be seen and not heard, you know you only speak when you're spoken to. What goes on in this house stays in this house. I can go on and on and on. And we knew that some of that wasn't psychologically safe but also just wasn't a space for curiosity and growth and for self-agency. And so we go from one extreme to the other yeah, extreme to the other. So where, you know, we have gentle parenting, but we also have, for parents, protecting our kids from any type of uncomfortable emotion or adversity.

John Broer: 10:32

Right.

Jonelle Massey: 10:33

And so when you talk about, this is something that's happening generation and I might have to take blame for that with my generation.

Sara Best: 10:41

Me too.

Jonelle Massey: 10:49

But I do think that it's going to continue, because my children, who are 17 or 13, love life because I have done some of that, and so they're probably going to repeat the behavior for their child. They're going to say, oh, I had a great childhood, didn't really have a whole lot of this or that, and so I can see it continually.

Sara Best: 11:02

Is that what we call snowplow parents, where they just plow all the tough stuff out of the way and smooth the road and the path for their kids?

Jonelle Massey: 11:11

I've never heard of that term, but this sounds about right to me.

Sara Best: 11:14

I learned about it after I heard the term helicopter parents, like I thought that was the new thing, but it makes a lot of sense, lot of sense. And if we think about John, your question about generationally, how leaders are, you know kind of dealing with multiple generations, their leadership style, if it's born from the command and control, and you know, I'll give you something to cry about. Like you know, quit your bellyache and get the job done.

John Broer: 11:40

Leave your personal life at the door.

Sara Best: 11:42

Yeah, and you have people coming in who have been conditioned to wow.

Jonelle Massey: 11:48

To express everything.

Sara Best: 11:49

Yes.

Jonelle Massey: 11:50

All the time.

Sara Best: 11:51

Yes.

John Broer: 11:52

Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, sorry Go.

Sara Best: 11:53

Well, I have a question. So, based on how you described what kids and people are and athletes are being trained to do, it seems like the missing piece. Then, if we have unhappiness or a disconnect, then we go find oneness with ourselves and we use mindfulness and I'm not knocking mindfulness at all, but it seems like the missing piece in there would be the actual connecting to and feeling the feelings all the way through, absolutely.

Jonelle Massey: 12:26

And that's great mental health.

Sara Best: 12:28

Okay, that's good mental health. Understanding where the feelings are in your body. Recently I was listening to a different podcast and they talked about how it's not the emotion that's the trauma. It's not even necessarily the experience that a person has that creates the trauma. It's that we don't deal with the emotion and it gets trapped, maybe physically, in our body. That creates trauma.

Jonelle Massey: 12:52

And also I think we haven't had an opportunity to build confidence and so if we're not acknowledging the emotion that we're having and then be able to work through it, we can't later say been there, done that. And although this situation looks a little different, it's very similar and I have the capacity, I have the skill set and I have the confidence to be able to face that head on.

Sara Best: 13:17

I'm worried. I think that's what you said we're concerned, I'm concerned too always improving.

John Broer: 13:45

You want one generation to. I don't want to say coddle or protect, but we're hoping that we are equipping our children to be prepared for the world and just do better than we did. On the other hand, though, to ignore the adversity of the world, because there's a lot of really dark parts of the world.

John Broer: 13:58

That's what's what you're talking about is that, if we are shielding from the reality that, listen, we want you to be good, you know citizens and honorable people and whatever that may look like, you know raising children, the reality is you are going to hit some things in your life that are going to set you back on your heels and be hard and painful. So somewhere in there where that message is getting lost, or we're just shielding people from that.

Jonelle Massey: 14:26

Yeah, also, we as parents are also aware of our kids' emotions and care about our kids' emotions, and for some reason that has translated to that we are responsible for our kids' emotions.

John Broer: 14:42

Okay.

Jonelle Massey: 14:43

And so if my child is sad, I must have not done enough or I caused it to happen. And so you know, I've got to figure out how to make myself feel better and not feel responsible, guilty about what I've done.

Sara Best: 15:04

Yeah, oh, that's a big one. What about, I mean, is that also happening in the workplace? One could theorize that Bossholes don't necessarily have that insight, awareness or interest potentially in you know, understanding or respecting other people's emotions. But do you see a similar thing when you know, when you work with leaders? Do you see a similar thing around over-responsibility, guilt, those kind of things?

Jonelle Massey: 15:34

Yes, I'm an educational consultant for principals, so you can only imagine in the times that we're in, where you know teachers are very stressed out, they're enduring a lot and they're not happy and they're expressing that on a daily basis and the principal feels responsible not only for the day-to-day operations of the building but also the wellbeing of their teachers because that is pressed upon them. You know, to have this psychological safe space for teachers. But we have to give a little bit of grace and some boundaries with the principal to say, listen, that teacher responded in that way because that's how she felt to respond and I don't think it's any indication of what you've done or haven't done.

Sara Best: 16:25

Right.

Jonelle Massey: 16:26

Yeah.

Sara Best: 16:26

That's helpful and that's something each of us as individuals should keep in mind. You know, people are experiencing what they are experiencing. We don't have to make what they do or say or don't do or don't say mean anything about us or them, but in sometimes in an agitated or fearful, dysregulated state, that's the easiest, you know. Assumption is, you know we default to. So that's another good piece, that that's right there.

Jonelle Massey: 16:55

I don't want to dismiss the fact that, as leaders, we need to create a space that people feel like they can make mistakes and that they can grow and that they can build capacity, and so that if they have some emotional regulation deficiencies, then let's create a space to hold them accountable for being able to bounce back with 28 kids sitting in front of him looking at them. You know, in certain settings, for educators for sure, but I think it's a balance too. So I don't want to come across as someone who's like we should just jump into every adversity. I mean, some places are unsafe, yes, and some feelings are more than uncomfortable, and I think we have to look at it like we would.

Jonelle Massey: 17:45

Physical health and that's how I explain it to folks Like, if we think about mental health the same way we think about physical health, sometimes my health is good, sometimes it's bad. There are certain areas in my physical health that needs more attention than others. You mentioned building muscle, John, earlier. Like I think about that, we need to be able to build muscle with our mental health as well, and the way we do that is we lift heavy weights.

John Broer: 18:15

That's a great analogy and I'm going to go back to your comment about psychological safety because in our work in the business world and psychological safety I mean we have an instrument we use that actually measures it. One of the things we talk about is to de-stigmatize failure. But I was presenting to a group and a business leader came up to me and he said I want you to come talk to my leadership because I think that's a problem in our organization. There is a stigma of fear, a failure that is inhibiting people from moving forward and being able to really lean into the work and fail safely. And what's interesting about that is, like it or not, the leader, the principal, the team leader, the executive they have a disproportionately larger impact on that. And it's not right, wrong, good or bad, it just is so. If our leaders, our managers, are not aware of that, then they have a real tendency or a threat to drift into the boss hole zone and create a very unsafe space.

Jonelle Massey: 19:18

Yeah, I love her work about hospitals and talking about, yeah, you know, being able to report the mistakes. I tell people all the time I want to go to a hospital who is transparent about what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong. I used a lot of her work as well.

Sara Best: 19:33

I'm with you. I'd rather go somewhere and be treated by somebody who might even be below the line, but at least they know they are and they're working it. So, Jonelle, you had talked about this emotional agility, which, in sports, we know what agility means you're fast, you're quick, you know your speed to shot or speed to whatever is superb. So, with emotional agility, maybe just tell us what that really means. And you had mentioned about how that, combined with empathy, creates something very helpful.

Jonelle Massey: 20:07

Can we hear more about that. Yeah, yeah, I came across Dr. Susan David's work about two years ago and she coined the term emotional agility. When I think about agility in the athletic world, I think about flexibility, a lot of athleticism, but really the flow and fluidness of movement, and so that's why emotional agility I love the term together because if we can be fluid with our emotions and let them flow and not take captive of us she uses the term getting hooked by thoughts like ruminating thoughts or feelings and not being able to move forward and be flexible and agile, and so she has some steps to emotional agility, and as I was reading those steps, I thought this is how I described empathy. So I love her even more because she talks about acknowledging the feeling or the thought, or being aware. I talk about acknowledging other people's feelings and where they are in life as part of empathy, and so just combining those two together, I think we can take emotional agility and use it so that we can practice empathy with each other.

Jonelle Massey: 21:30

One of the key parts about emotional agility that I love is she says once you're able to let things flow and stay in neutral, you can now take action to walking out your why, and to me, I think we need to have more value conversations than we've ever had before. Yes, and we do in social media chat rooms about you know politics, but like really, you know politics, but like really. What do we value in our homes? What do we value as far as how we want to look and behave in this world? And so do I value being right right now that's our practice, is a lot in my marriage or do I value peace?

Jonelle Massey: 22:17

And so in my late 20s I valued being right all the time, and later on in life it's something different. But I always ask my children is the decision you're about to make or the decision that you made, does it align with your values? Yes, and I think we can only get to that if we're able to move the emotions out of the way, to get our thinking brain intact and with empathy. I think the misconception is that it's always about feeling and vicariously feeling with others, and I want to be able to flow that away, just like emotional agility, and let's get to the thought behind people's feelings. So that's where the true connection occurs.

Sara Best: 23:03

The values piece is really important and I'm so glad you highlighted that. I wonder if more emphasis on values, people understanding and generating their values and constantly working to live into those values might not reduce some of the other uncertainty and challenge that they create or that they face in their life and reduce some of the emotional drama even around decisions and things like that. So I just want to say any leader, any person, would benefit from a values reflection and either establishing or re-establishing those values. So emotional agility and empathy. And your book, by the way, it was published in 2021. Is that correct, correct?

Sara Best: 23:50

It's called "The Miseducation of Empathy and I think this is a great place for us to go as we head toward our wrap up. It might even be the most important place for us to go as we head toward our wrap-up. It might even be the most important place you know. We know that the research and the data says that people are calling, screaming for empathy in the workplace and they want a different kind of environment. But you have some poignant thoughts about, maybe, how we even get there and if we can get there. So maybe I'll toss it over to you and say tell us about you know the thoughts there.

Jonelle Massey: 24:18

Maybe I'll toss it over to you and say tell us about the thoughts there. The research also says that bosses are afraid to show empathy because it makes them seem weak. Yeah, still, still. And I think it's because they don't understand what empathy is. So this is my theory on what empathy is, based on my lived experiences and so, as an athlete and someone who was told to stay calm and stay neutral and don't get too emotional in the heat of competition, that kind of transferred over to my life. So I wasn't a very high and low emotional person, wasn't a very high and low emotional person. I was a great listener, but I was never described as someone who was empathetic, and I think that's because I didn't cry with people and I was pretty neutral around people. And so I really, in college, start thinking about it because I had a lot of adversity in college, particularly with basketball, because my head coach that recruited me I never played for and he promised me that he would work with me.

Jonelle Massey: 25:30

Basketball was not my first sport and so I was recruited as a project. I went to Xavier University on a soccer visit and end up playing basketball.

Sara Best: 25:41

Wow!

Jonelle Massey: 25:42

Yeah, and because my parents said they were not sitting outside anymore. And so so here we were. Oh my gosh, I was okay, sort of okay with it, because the coach promised me that he would work with me and then he went to Toledo. So that was Coach Elan. Oh, wow, yeah. And so then I don't know if you know this, but I had Coach Cole up my second, my second year at Xavier. She was my assistant coach at Xavier, but anyway did not know that, yeah, it was rough.

Jonelle Massey: 26:14

It was rough and she was very empathetic. And she was very empathetic but I found myself trying to find someone who understood feeling complaining about.

Jonelle Massey: 26:43

You get to travel the world, and so it was very hard for people to understand some of the central themes that a lot of people go through, which is being disappointed because of abandonment or just things not going as planned or as promised.

Sara Best: 27:00

Right.

Jonelle Massey: 27:01

And so I just started exploring this idea of what empathy really is, and particularly that whole saying put yourself in someone else's shoes. And I struggled with that and I thought how can anybody put themselves in my shoes? They've not gone through all the things. And I thought how can anybody put themselves in my shoes? They've not gone through all the things and I don't know how I could do that for others.

Jonelle Massey: 27:23

And so the tagline of my book is "keep yourself in your own shoes so that you can create space for people to be heard.

Sara Best: 27:31

Yes.

Jonelle Massey: 27:32

And so I started my journey and I think if we can get to the point where we're not trying to feel what other people are feeling, but get behind the feeling and investigate their experience and their thoughts and their beliefs, then maybe we can have some connection there. And so there's a process in the book that I you know, the ABC model, and then I also talk about some archetypes of how we express empathy.

Sara Best: 28:01

It is a beautiful book. You put a lot of your own story in there, other really powerful stories. We'll make sure that our listeners have access to be able to purchase the book or find it online through our show notes. I think what I'm hearing you say it reminds me of something I've heard Brene Brown say around empathy it's believing the experience and the feelings of others. So I like how you have released us of the responsibility to have to feel the feelings. I mean, we can do that too, but it's more about supporting, working to understand and starting from where they are believing their experience.

Sara Best: 28:43

In your case, what would it have been like for you if people didn't question or tell you to suck it up? You got a full ride. You should just enjoy where you are. What if they really began to understand? Hey, she just needs some things. She's experienced a significant shift in loss. She needs some certainty. She needs some clarity. I think that's really great advice. And for the leaders who are uncomfortable or don't really know how to express empathy, it's really not about you, it's about the other person. It's about you focusing on the other person, and if you don't know what they're saying or you can't relate to what they're feeling, then you got to ask some questions.

Jonelle Massey: 29:24

Not dumb questions.

John Broer: 29:27

Can I real quick one of the things, Sara, we've talked about, what is our saying? The greatest sources of frustration is unmet expectations. And I think, Jonelle, I mean your expectation was you were, I mean you made a switch in sports, you were going to play basketball for this person who was going to develop you, and then they're gone. So those expectations are completely wiped away or are in complete conflict with whatever the new situation is. I cannot tell you how many, Sara, you experienced this.

John Broer: 29:56

How many times I've talked to people just had it this past weekend a young business professional. He went to work for this individual at a bank and six months later this person left and a new person came in and it was an absolute nightmare. Actually, he may be on the program I'm trying to convince him to be on it because I said this is a great story but that's a great example of where I am committing to this with specific expectations and hopes and dreams of developing and then that person is gone and everything changes and for it, in the world of business, the equivalent would be well, you got a job, you know you're getting, you're making good money. What are you complaining about? And it's like that's not the issue, so that makes a lot of sense. I think there are a lot of people, a lot of our listeners, that have experienced exactly that, whether it's in sports or work, and it's like this is painful. And the fact that these other things exist doesn't discount the fact that I am really struggling with this.

Jonelle Massey: 30:54

Yeah, and expectations unmet without support is even worse, yes, so in both of those situations in my experience and the one you just shared, it's like he now doesn't have the support he thought he was.

John Broer: 31:07

Right yeah.

Sara Best: 31:10

Jonnelle, how can people get a hold of you? What might they be able to benefit from if they had the opportunity? Would they have the opportunity to work with you?

Jonelle Massey: 31:19

Yes, so I am the owner of Agility Counseling Group and I do one-on-one counseling. I do a lot of work with athletic teams. As I mentioned before, I'm an educational consultant, so I work for a consulting firm and most of our clients are out west. But then I also do some executive therapeutic leadership coaching, and so that's interesting because I actually do therapy with our leaders in combination with their coaching, and so that program has been really successful because of the live feedback. I think a lot of the coaching is done virtually or not live, and so to be able to walk with our leaders in their setting, their work setting, and be able to observe and give live feedback and some suggestions during that time is very beneficial, and it's how we started the podcast today. It's like how do we deal with things in the midst of what's going on? Yes, so yeah, that's how I am being used in this world right now, yeah, and I can be found everywhere.

Sara Best: 32:43

Good. And I love that. I think it's unique and it does set this kind of therapeutic work apart that you can explore history and feelings and emotions and deeper things yet provide support and accountability for leaders right where they are. And I mean, if you pluck them out of the environment and then they have to go back in, I've never understood how we're supposed to take what we talk about and then go live it out. It's real time with you and that's really powerful. Thank you so much for your efforts, you know, for sharing with us today how you work, your work, now captured in a beautiful book. We'll make sure our listeners have access to that, and all good things to you as you move ahead, thank you.

John Broer: 33:28

A wonderful conversation. Thank you, Jonelle, and to all of our listeners out there, we will see you next time on the Bossh ole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bossh ole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here, and if you have your own boss hole story that you want to share with the Bossh ole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles. com. Again, mystory@thebossholechronicles. com, we'll see you next time.