Sabina Nawaz - Grow Through Pressure

What transforms a caring manager into someone their employees fear? According to executive coach Sabina Nawaz, it's not a personality defect—it's pressure. Drawing from her own jarring experience of returning from maternity leave to find herself snapping at her team, Nawaz reveals the hidden forces that push good people into problematic leadership behaviors. This eye-opening conversation challenges the myth that there are simply "good" and "bad" bosses. Nawaz, who spent 14 years at Microsoft working with leaders like Bill Gates, explains how both types of boss reside within us all. The difference lies in our awareness and the tools we use to navigate workplace pressures without sacrificing our humanity.

• Click HERE for Sabina's book, You're the Boss - Becoming the Manager You Want to Be (and Others Need)
• Click HERE for Sabina's website
• Click HERE for Sabina's LinkedIn page

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Chapters

• 0:04 Meet Sabina Nawaz, Author of "You're the Boss"
• 7:50 From Caring Coach to Snippy Boss: A Personal Story
• 12:59 Pressure, Not Power, Corrupts Managers
• 16:08 The Power Gap: How Authority Distorts Communication
• 20:56 Beyond the Singular Story: Making Multiple Meanings
• 24:17 Common Management Pitfalls and Self-Awareness
• 30:35 Final Advice: Exercise Your Shut-Up Muscle

Transcript

John Broer: 0:04

Welcome back to all of our friends out there in The Boss hole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer. I'm so excited for this episode. I get excited for all of our episodes, Really excited for this one because you are going to meet Sabina Nawaz.

John Broer: 0:20

Sabina is the author of the book You're the Boss, Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need. Sabina is an elite executive coach who advises C-level executives and teams at Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, nonprofits, etc. She's a frequent speaker and even teaches at Northeastern and Drexel Universities. She actually spent 14 years at Microsoft, where she went from managing software development teams to leading the company's executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers. So she has a lot of experience, broad knowledge about management, leadership and working with managers and, in addition to the work with all those executives, she worked directly in an advisory capacity to Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. She's been featured in Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Inc Magazine, Fast Company, NBC, NASDAQ and MarketWatch.

John Broer: 1:22

But today we're really going to dig into her book You're the Boss. I'm so excited because not only is it very practical, but it talks about the pitfalls that managers experience, the myths that we think about out there, about bosses and Bosshole behavior, and the one thing she emphasizes is that it isn't necessarily power that corrupts when it comes to being a manager, but pressure. So sit back, everybody, and let's have a chat with Sabina Nawaz. The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm, helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Well, Sabina, welcome to The Bossh ole Chronicles. It's so good to have you here.

Sabina Nawaz: 2:22

Thank you so much. I'm excited to launch into this very unusual sounding podcast.

John Broer: 2:30

We get that sometimes and I appreciate that, of course, you know everybody has a boss hole story and when you and I are actually introduced by your publicist, betsy and so thank you, betsy, for doing that, because I think our listeners are going to love hearing more about your work and which really culminates in this book. And, by the way, just for everybody you know, to go into the show notes, you'll get the uh, you'll be able to see Sabina's link to her information, but also a link to her book called or entitled you're the boss becoming the manager you want to be and others need. So let's back up a little bit, because there's great information, great content in the book. We're going to dig into some of it, but you need to get the book to really appreciate its full value. But, sabina, take us back to the.

John Broer: 3:19

I always like to hear the origin story. Where did this all start for you in terms of needing to create this work? What a great question, john. And to frame it as origin story, where did this all start for you in terms of needing to create this work?

Sabina Nawaz: 3:26

What a great question, john, and to frame it as origin story, because it goes back many, many years when I was a lousy manager at Microsoft. So I would be one of the targets of your show, and it wasn't always the case. At first, I managed teams that built software. I cared about them, I coached them. Those were great years because people told me I was the best boss they'd ever had.

John Broer: 3:47

Oh, okay.

Sabina Nawaz: 3:48

Then I was managing the company's management development and went on parental leave the first day. As I'm getting ready to get back to work, putting on lipstick for the first time in five months, my assistant, lori, calls me frantic. Where are you? Steve expects you in five months. My assistant, lori, calls me frantic. Where are you? Steve expects you in 30 minutes. I'm hitting warp speed on the freeway while Lori's reading me the memo that I'm supposed to discuss with Steve Ballmer, the CEO of Microsoft.

Sabina Nawaz: 4:14

And that set the pace and tone, john, for my return to work Overflowing inbox jam-packed calendar. Infant at home, no sleep, no peace, no patience. I became, instead of caring and nurturing, snippy and short, still five foot three, but also short.

John Broer: 4:33

I was micromanaging.

Sabina Nawaz: 4:35

I was barking out orders. I didn't have time to repeat instructions, pressured for time. When people would come to my office, I would leave all 10 fingers on the keyboard signaling I'm very busy, more important than you spit it out.

John Broer: 4:50

Got it.

Sabina Nawaz: 4:51

Until my colleague tells me Zach is crying in his office because of what you said. So here I was, thinking I was being efficient, I was being great at what I did, and suddenly realizing as my whole body washes over with shame, how did I morph, how did I go from being caring and compassionate to someone people apparently fear and really don't like? And that started this journey of why I'm writing this book. I'm writing this book because I have been in those shoes. Okay, I've been in those shoes.

Sabina Nawaz: 5:25

I've been in those shoes where it's not power that corrupts us, it's pressure, and we start to take on these behaviors under pressure and we're not aware of it. So I have a lot of compassion for this, but also recognize that we all have both things going on in us which can take us from being the best boss ever to the boss from hell.

John Broer: 5:51

Okay, fair enough. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that. I believe that there are a lot of people in our audience that can. I mean certainly working moms, if I may. I mean, you were just getting back from maternity leave, correct? Yes, so there's that pressure. I mean there's the pressure of work, but you have a newborn at home or a five-month-old or a six-month-old Right. Just layer that on top of it, the distractions, the pressure, that's pretty considerable. Yep, oh, my gosh.

John Broer: 6:24

Okay, you just surfaced something for me that I think is a really helpful variable that I think organizations need to consider. I mean, obviously, accommodations were made, or provisions were made, if you will. They knew you were going to be leaving for five months and so there had to be something to backfill or support while you were going to be gone, so you weren't inundated with emails while you were gone. How would you characterize the effectiveness of the backfilling while you were gone and then helping you transition back, because it sounds like coming back? You just got blasted from all sides with all of this work. You just got blasted from all sides with all of this work. How would you am I getting this right?

Sabina Nawaz: 7:07

Yeah, I think. I mean the backfilling was great. I had somebody on my team who was in charge of doing things.

John Broer: 7:16

I would have thought so with Microsoft, absolutely it was fantastic.

Sabina Nawaz: 7:23

Yeah, it was great support. Really nice leave policy Coming back. It was, I think a lot of it was my choice because I chose to do my job and my boss's job. She left when I was eight months pregnant, oh man. So, and I was working with the senior, most executives of the company.

John Broer: 7:37

Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz: 7:37

And with that comes a lot of pressure.

John Broer: 7:40

Okay, that right there. That's a pretty important fact that you were doing two jobs, okay, now I think now we're getting an appreciation for the pressure, okay, so you get back in it and you come to this realization, and then what?

Sabina Nawaz: 8:05

him and apologized and Zach's eyes brimmed with tears and it's that moment of connection that made me realize this is what I want. What I want is to treat people with humanity, and pressure had not just squeezed my time, it had squeezed out my humanity. It was about slowing down, going back to doing the things I knew how to do and did well in my past jobs as a manager, and pay attention to people and their needs, in addition to being efficient and getting a lot done.

John Broer: 8:29

So it sounds like then you took a step back and sort of re-evaluated and did a bit of soul searching too. So is the book really a result of this philosophy or methodology that you put into place, or did it happen pretty quickly after you came to this realization?

Sabina Nawaz: 8:48

Well, the methodology for the book is actually based on 12,000 pages of data. I interview about a dozen people when I coach somebody, a dozen people who work with them, to get a sense of what it's actually like to work with this person and for this person. Based on that data, I analyze what are the most common traps that managers fall into, even the most well-meaning, the most high-performing bosses, and what do they need to do to overcome it. So the book really has three key points. First is that being promoted is the riskiest point in your career. The second is that it is not power but pressure that corrupts our actions. And the third is that then power, if pressure is that silent corrupter, power is the great divider. It separates us from the truth the truth as in the effect our corrupted actions have on the people who work with us, because nobody wants to tell the person in a position of power what they don't want to hear.

John Broer: 9:44

Exactly, exactly. So let's dig into that a little bit more. In the book, of course, you talk about the four and, by the way, I think you already know from our previous conversations at Real stone cold facts, when you've got that objective data, it helps to take. Well, as we say, let's focus on the data, not the drama, and so we can start to focus on objective reality versus the emotion that pressure will bring out, and so I think that's very powerful. So, sabina, you talk about the four myths and it's an an early part of the book and we're only going to focus on one and you said you specifically wanted to talk about the first myth. Tell us a little bit about the myth and why it is a myth maybe very rare exceptions.

Sabina Nawaz: 10:48

There are no purely good or bad bosses, because bosses don't wake up every morning and go. I know I want to be a boss. Hole to your point. They want to do a good job. Nobody wants to be that jerk who acts out under pressure or abuses power in the name of productivity, and no one wants to work for that kind of person either, right? So if we assume that, then we're acting under pressure, like when I was doing the things I was doing. That did not net a great result. It's not that I was a bad person. I was a boss behaving badly, yes, and the worst part was I wasn't aware. So both good and bad boss reside within us and the circumstances shape which side shows up.

John Broer: 11:26

Yep.

Sabina Nawaz: 11:27

Now it's possible to channel more of that good boss side without getting a personality transplant or spending decades studying emotional intelligence by buying a few simple tools and having the courage, the humanity, to do that by parking your ego and taking a few concrete steps.

John Broer: 11:49

And that is a really critical component there, because we know that self-awareness is the number one competency to be an effective leader. Quite frankly, I think it's the number one competency to be an effective human. Human, yes, but if you get somebody that is so I don't know if the word is defiant or egocentric that it's not about me, it's about them. They have to figure it out and that is a recipe for bosshole behavior. And if I may, I'm going to read directly out of the book from under the first myth there are I mean myth number one there are good and bad bosses. That is myth number one. And you write bad bosses are rarely bad people. In fact, most of them are good people with the best of intentions who unwittingly cross a tenuous dividing line between good intentions and bad behaviors and we would refer to that as crossing into the bosshole zone, and nobody wants to do that intentionally. So tell us a little bit more about how managers can avoid that from crossing that line.

Sabina Nawaz: 12:56

Well, there are many lines that are created between managers and employees. One of those lines is what I named the power gap, which is a divide, and some of that occurs naturally, hierarchically. Some of that is even healthy to have appropriate boundaries, because you're no longer one of the people, you're no longer their best friend. You are their manager and there's a role, appropriateness to it. But a lot of it also creates a separation and a distance that makes it hard to see things clearly. So the power gap is a schism and there's a number of power gaps that show up.

Sabina Nawaz: 13:32

Now it's hard to navigate the power gap because power is like a it distorts. It's like a broken volume knob. Everything that's coming up sounds milder than what people are actually experiencing, cushioned in praise. So employees saying yes, everything is fine, means I've started a secret group chat about your management style and similarly, everything that the manager is saying comes across much louder, more dire, more urgent, directed personally at us. So your casual hey, can we chat will come across as oh, you better have said goodbye to your office plants. So it's an insidious gap and one of the most insidious power gaps is this notion of a singular story. Look, you didn't get into a position of power by being wrong all the time or being a complete failure. These are successful people. These are smart people. These are people who are right a lot, and when we're right a lot and you combine that with power, nobody will tell us we're wrong. Nobody will tell us. Our information is incomplete.

Sabina Nawaz: 14:44

So we think our story is the story and we stick to it and that's the danger of a singular story is it could be incomplete or outdated or incorrect. And so how do we, how do we pause when we're in a power gap, which is as soon as we have a title or we're the boss, how do we pause and harvest as many different meanings as possible before proceeding to solve something? Now you might say but Sabine, I don't have time to pause and do that. Well, first of all, do you have time to make a mistake and rewind that. But secondly, this takes, when I teach this, it takes people maybe somewhere between five to seven minutes to come up with 15 different ways to see a challenge. So we're not talking about five to seven months, we're talking about five to seven minutes. Let me give you a concrete example seven months we're talking about five to seven minutes.

Sabina Nawaz: 15:38

Let me give you a concrete example. A CTO I coached came into a meeting very upset because the CPO the product person had proposed a topic for their CEO staff meeting that he thought was in his area no-transcript area because it's new, or maybe he's actually trying to help me by elevating the visibility of this topic. This then allowed him to go have a direct conversation with the CPO. Turned out that a combination of some of these things was true. They collaborated and presented together and ended up getting more funding for that project. So by pausing instead of acting with that singular story, he was able to make up more interpretations of what might actually be going on and act more strategically and more collaboratively.

John Broer: 16:53

Well, and that is giving managers new tools, new disciplines, actually like sort of rewiring their brain. Because, you know, it's the, as you said, the fight or flight, and I think I mean, I think our, to a degree, the workplace breeds this competitive, almost scarcity, mentality of, yeah, if you're doing anything, it's you're taking it from me, and I love that idea. I love that idea and and what it forced this person to do. Well, you did you, you helped model this was you got to take a beat, you got to, you got to stop, tap the brake. And because one of the things my business partner, sarah Best, says and I and I love this she said you know, humans are meaning-making machines and we will create all kinds of stories about what other people are doing and why, rather than sort of walking through this potential scenario or different scenarios, and then having a conversation about it.

Sabina Nawaz: 17:51

It's actually leaning into that meaning-making machine nature of ours. Instead of saying stop making meaning, stop telling stories, which is not possible, make more stories. You've got one story, how about three? You've got three stories. How about nine? Because then we can be more charitable in our interpretations of what's going on.

John Broer: 18:09

Love it, love it, and they don't have to all be bad stories. As a matter of fact, conditioning yourself to think about what else could be going on. Now, that's great, that is so great. So one of the other things, sabina, that I think about, relative to the myth that there are good bosses and bad bosses, sometimes, I think the organizations inadvertently and I'm sure you've seen this create boss hole zones. I mean, they sort of shove people over that line, create pressure, if you will, inadvertently, and all of a sudden we have these bad boss behaviors showing up.

John Broer: 18:45

And one of the things I think about is, first of all, taking a really great individual contributor and moving them into a position of management, but with no training and no guidance in terms of what to do and what to expect. And one of the things you talk about is when people move into management, it's a whole different ballgame. It is an entirely different set of rules and structures and methodology and an approach. And one of the things that you maybe think of is organizations that are very intentional about making sure, when you get a promotion, you will not be managing your former peers. I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where you managed your former peers. I was, and it is awkward, but I had some great coaching and training and mentoring before that happened and I can assure you it kept me out of the boss hole zone. I drifted in there every now and then, but managing your former peers creates a very, very awkward dynamic at times.

Sabina Nawaz: 19:41

Yeah, it is a very. It's one of the hardest things, because you're a peer and suddenly you become the other.

John Broer: 19:49

Yeah. Suddenly you have that power gap, yeah, yeah. Sabina, when you talk about pressure, one of the other things you mention and you go into in the book are the pitfalls, and I know that there are a number of ways we could go, but what would you say are some of the more I don't know if it's common or the more critical pitfalls that our managers need to be aware of no-transcript.

Sabina Nawaz: 20:39

The other could be the straight-A student who wants everything to be done to perfection. Another could be the flash, who talks fast, who moves fast and, like me, listens to audiobooks at 1.5 times the speed and they're like it's going to be faster if I just do it, instead of trying to delegate it or explain it to someone. You could have the whack-a-mole champ, who gets their jollies from whacking each to-do list as fast as they can and even writing things down that have been done, just for the joy of cracking them off.

John Broer: 21:11

Of checking them off. Exactly, exactly off.

Sabina Nawaz: 21:19

Okay, exactly exactly now, the. The bad news with all of these, of course, is that it increases pressure on you because you're the sole person who can do all these things. It also continuously, perpetually, keeps your team dependent on you instead of building their own capabilities, their own muscles, to figure this out and do it on them by themselves. So it creates this vicious cycle that further increases pressure because you've jumped in and become the sole provider.

John Broer: 21:44

So, sabina, one of the things we love about the works like this is that you're giving very practical, not only advice, but it's like how do we put this into practice in the workplace and within the book? You're the Boss. You have what you call 360 yourself to stay on track, so tell us about that and how it will help the reader.

Sabina Nawaz: 22:07

Well, just to put some context for those who are not familiar with the lingo in our field, a 360 is getting feedback in a 360 degree fashion from your colleagues, that is, people who report up to you, people who work beside you, people who are above you. So you're getting this whole full circle of feedback. The book is based on 12,000 pages of data from interview-based 360s that I conduct. Now think of this book as your executive coach for $30. You don't have to get a 360. You don't have to get a coach. You could simply go to the end, call 360 yourself and it has a set of 42 questions. These questions help you understand direction. You ask yourself these questions and they help you understand directionally which power gaps or which pressure pitfalls are you most susceptible to. And then you can simply go to those tools and use those instead of having to work through the entire book. So start with the 360 yourself Now.

Sabina Nawaz: 23:07

If you say, oh gosh, 42 questions, I don't have 15 minutes to sit down and do that. Well, first, I would immediately point you to the tool called Time Portfolio, if you said that. But second, here are a few questions to whet your appetite if you don't want to do all 42. First question is are you the only one who brings up ideas? Second is do people ever disagree with you? Third, do you always use yeah, but to justify the bad behaviors you're doing? So these are some questions, some initial questions, to take a foray into. Where might be my blind?

John Broer: 23:47

spots critical, especially in a management and supervisory role. Self-awareness is just one side of the coin. It's understanding your impact on other people, and 360s are so powerful in providing that perspective. But you got to be prepared for that and I'm sure you tee that up pretty clearly in the book, but for anybody that's ever done a 360, you get that feedback and sometimes it cuts to the core and you have to be looking at it or embracing it in a way that is affirming while at the same time very revealing to the individual and maybe not in such a favorable way. I mean, I know, you know this, but how do you prepare people for that? I mean, it's powerful, but we want it to be powerful in the right way. Does that make sense?

Sabina Nawaz: 24:48

I prepare them by scaring the bejesus out of them. So I and I did one of these just today.

John Broer: 24:56

Okay.

Sabina Nawaz: 24:58

And I tell them I say, for the next 10 minutes, I'm just going to scare the bejesus out of you.

John Broer: 25:02

Okay.

Sabina Nawaz: 25:03

But just in case you think you're special, you're not. This is my standard garden variety scaring for everybody.

John Broer: 25:11

Okay.

Sabina Nawaz: 25:11

Because there is not a single person I know who, after receiving an interview-based 360 report, doesn't feel gutted, doesn't feel devastated, isn't surprised by some comment or the other, and I can't predict which comment is going to hit them, but something does. It's very hard to read in the actual words of your co-workers and colleagues how you're being perceived. Even though there's a lot of and plenty of positive comments, there's all this critique that's hard to take in. So I prepare them by giving them plenty of heads up about how difficult this process typically is Generally, how long it takes people to just do in oh my gosh, I'm going to quit then or defensiveness, or defensiveness, what they should do while they're in this phase.

Sabina Nawaz: 26:02

If someone asked them how the feedback went, that is not talk about it. Deflect it, because you're going to say things that you'll regret later on in the moment of feeling emotionally reactive. So I do. I encourage them to find the right time and place. One person told me they didn't want to read it at work. They didn't want to read it at home. They didn't want to read it at home, but they were going to get on an airplane and that's when they were going to save reading it. Find the right space. It's not the kind of thing you want to receive right before an important board meeting.

John Broer: 26:30

Good, that's true. Oh yeah, I think time and place makes a lot of sense, and once you go through it, though, and you realize how valuable it is, you start to see people grow well, hopefully grow in their not only their self-awareness, but their maturity. The depth of how they internalize this information and realize this is designed to help me, not harm me, and while it may gut me and cut to the quick, if I don't take advantage of this or utilize this, then I'm going to just continue down a path that's not going to be helpful.

Sabina Nawaz: 27:05

Yeah, and no matter which organization, even if I leave in a huff, no matter which organization I go into. I'm going to notice this.

John Broer: 27:12

Yeah, that is so true, so true. Okay. Well, to our listeners a reminder go into the show notes, get the book. You're the Boss Becoming the Manager, you trying to share and help others avoid the pitfalls that you talk about what's giving you the most meaning and fulfillment right now and how can people engage you?

Sabina Nawaz: 27:49

The biggest meaning and fulfillment I'm getting right now is people's reactions to the book.

John Broer: 27:54

Okay.

Sabina Nawaz: 27:54

Specifically their reaction to their generosity. I have people. When I first announced that my book was coming out, a colleague of mine reached out who I hadn't talked to in probably 15 years.

John Broer: 28:09

Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz: 28:09

And said I published my book last year, a lot of people helped me. Now I'm going to help you. He didn't ask can I help you? What can I do to help? He said here's. And he said if you don't need it, that's fine, ignore it. But here's a list of 20 different podcasts that have been on and I'm happy to broker an introduction to any one of those people. Here's three TV stations that interviewed me again, and I was on one of those yesterday.

Sabina Nawaz: 28:35

So, but that's just one example of countless people who have come out of the woodwork without me asking who've said wow, this is a great book, I'm moved by it, so I'm going to now go sell it to my clients.

John Broer: 28:49

Yeah, shout out to the world Whatever.

Sabina Nawaz: 28:52

So there's just been a lot of generosity and support and that gives me tremendous fulfillment and joy.

John Broer: 28:58

Oh, that's so great. That is so great and I mean, and you obviously continue with your coaching work, the work you're doing with C-Suite members of the C-Suite so I will make sure to put your contact information or your LinkedIn, a link to your LinkedIn profile, in the show notes. But, sabina, if you could let me ask you this You've got a bunch of either new managers, would-be managers or experienced managers listening in. What is one piece of advice, one key takeaway you would give them at this point in time?

Sabina Nawaz: 29:31

The one piece of advice I would give is exercise your shut-up muscle.

Sabina Nawaz: 29:35

of advice I would give is exercise your shut up muscle and, as a manager, when you start speaking, others' ideas get quashed. It's hard for others to have divergent points of view and because power isolates and insulates, you don't get the truth until it's too late. If you keep talking, how are you going to listen and sense what's going on? So, instead of being the first person to speak, be the third or fourth person to speak, so you can start to first get more voices in there and second, start to sense and read the room instead of simply talking.

John Broer: 30:08

What's the old saying? There is no point in speaking unless you can improve on silence. I need to remember that one all the time I really do.

Sabina Nawaz: 30:17

That's a great one.

John Broer: 30:18

Well, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. It'd be great to have you back and hear what are the latest things you're working on.

Sabina Nawaz: 30:26

Fantastic. Thank you, John. I would love to come back and thank you for having me. Thank you for all the thoughtfulness you've put into reading the book and crafting these beautiful questions.

John Broer: 30:36

Oh, it's been my pleasure put into reading the book and crafting these beautiful questions. Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thank you all for listening in and we will see you next time on the Boss Hole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Boss Hole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here, and if you have your own boss hole story that you want to share with the Boss Hole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystoryatthebossholechroniclescom. Again, mystoryatthebossholechroniclescom, we'll see you next time.