Sara and Karen - Your Manager May Not be Able to Apologize

Why is it so difficult for managers to simply say "I'm sorry"? This fascinating episode dives deep into the psychology behind leadership vulnerability and the barriers that prevent authentic connection in the workplace.

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Chapters

• 0:05 Introduction to The Boss Hole Chronicle
• 1:23 Understanding Shame and Vulnerability
• 5:55 The Armored Manager
• 11:00 The Disconnected Manager
• 15:37 The Entitled Manager
• 20:10 Resources and Final Thoughts

Transcript

SaraBest: 0:05

Hey everybody, welcome back to The Boss ole Chronicle. This is Sara Best, your co-host, and if you've ever just coveted or craved a manager or a boss or a leader just apologizing for something they did that you know and everybody else knows they did that was a mistake or that they did wrong. Today we're gonna unpack some of the reasons why managers and bosses and leaders don't or can't apologize and try to make some sense of the power of vulnerability in building cohesion on a team, getting better results. It's a good conversation, it's a rich conversation I'm gonna have with Karen Schulman on our team. I think you're gonna love it. So let's dig in.

Annoucement: 1:19

Enjoy today's episode.

SaraBest: 1:24

Hey, Karen, it's been a while. How are you? I am great.

KarenShulman: 1:29

How are you doing, Sarah? It has been a while.

SaraBest: 1:31

Yeah, I feel really excited to have the opportunity to join with you on what I think is a really important topic. One we haven't really ventured into much on the Bosshole Chronicles, uh, but I think you are you're the right person to have this conversation with. And I'm excited for our listeners to more deeply understand the relationship that a manager needs to have with vulnerability. And there's all this lingo and all these, you know, activities and practices to build trust. But at the end of the day, if somebody who's a manager isn't able to be vulnerable and say, I'm sorry, I did the I did a really dumb thing, or I had a tone of voice with you yesterday, or I was jealous and I kind of held you back. I mean, if they're not willing to be vulnerable, there's not a whole lot of trust or safety that can be established.

KarenShulman: 2:23

They absolutely agree.

SaraBest: 2:24

I'm excited because we have kind of a couple of different um personas to uh maybe unpack. But I also want to give credit to Uni Turtini, who actually has been a guest on our podcast before. She is a speaker, author, uh blogger. She is very laser focused on people finding their purpose and finding their life. So I give credit to Uni for uh the impetus behind uh this podcast. Let's just start. You know, yeah, we said the shame word, the S word, uh, we said the vulnerability word. I just want to let Brene Brown give us a little definition for shame, because she's a shame researcher and an expert. She's a guru. She says that shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy of acceptance and belonging. So I'm just gonna say that one more time. It's the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy of acceptance and belonging. And I mean, what I understand and what I experience myself is that it's always there in the background. I mean, shame is not about what we did, it's kind of about who we are. And if if we as individuals or caretakers for other people or managers or leaders haven't maybe taken a look at that, maybe this conversation today is an encouragement to say, hey, what would happen if you dipped your toe in the pool of shame that we're all really as humans a part of? What she says about shame is that it's universal. It's really an experience of all of us. It grows in silence. So the funny thing about shame is it's like the darkness, and we just let it be the darkness. And to overcome shame, we have to practice vulnerability, like saying I'm sorry, vulnerability. So we want to kind of focus on that, Karen, don't we?

KarenShulman: 4:22

We we do. Yeah. And I I think to carry a Brene Brown theme forward, yeah. Uh, that vulnerability, while most people feel that vulnerability means I'm weak. Yes, she describes it as the intersection of courage and fear, I believe.

SaraBest: 4:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KarenShulman: 4:44

Yeah. And if you think about it, when you are making yourself vulnerable, you have to be courageous to do that, but you are probably shaking in your boots with fear at the same time.

SaraBest: 4:54

Yeah. And could we just appreciate that that's a universal experience? That's not unique to you or me. She defines vulnerability as emotional risk and uncertainty. And you're right, she says you cannot get to courage without rumbling with vulnerability. You know, we're gonna rumble a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the spirit of vulnerability, we're gonna borrow from Uni's description of there are different types of managers or bosses, and we'll say people. And we're just gonna spend a little bit of time on each one. I think there are three today. That if the goal is to build trust and safety in a relationship or on a team, recognizing who you might be at times, one of these personas could be helpful in determining what you might want to shift or change. So, Karen, tell us about the first one, the first kind of manager.

KarenShulman: 5:55

The first kind of manager, first kind of boss is what Uni refers to as the armored manager. And we we kind of feel that an armored manager is one that theoretically wears a coat of armor. Uh, they don't they don't want anybody to get too close because they want to appear strong and unflappable versus uh vulnerable or maybe in their minds weak. And I would say that you know, these are the folks that because they're putting on a persona, because they they kind of live um in the way that they do, uh, when they're managing people, they might be more comfortable in the superficial.

SaraBest: 6:40

What some people describe as the socialized self, like kind of up there way on the surface. I think this is this is really important. And of course, if any, if any of you are Brene Brown followers, you would appreciate and know that she has trained people all over the world. And her books help us understand what is meant by armor and what kinds of armor we put on. I just wanted to share a few examples. Numbing is an armor, distraction, food, alcohol, social media, busyness, binge watching, whatever it might be. Uh, I love this one, foreboding joy. This is the act of dress rehearsing tragedy, anticipating and preparing for the worst. Like it's just gonna be so bad. There are moments of genuine joy or happiness to protect oneself from potential disappointment. So that one is worth uh a little unpacking, which we won't do today. Shame and blame. Uh, instead of fostering responsibility and empathy, we sh focus on shame and blame others to really avoid difficult emotions. Hello. I kind of know that one a little bit. Being a knower, not a learner. Oh, yeah, I got I got that. Yeah, I read that book.

Speaker 03: 7:50

Mm-hmm.

SaraBest: 7:51

Yeah, that's good stuff. Um, getting things right, it just corrodes trust and growth. Like it just is puts a stop to, oh, well, you already know this, so I can't share anything new with you. And then the other one she talks about is tapping out of hard conversations. And that makes so much sense, doesn't it? Like and it does.

KarenShulman: 8:09

And especially in the context of an armored manager, an armored boss not being able to apologize, because that's a difficult thing to do. It's a difficult conversation, right?

SaraBest: 8:21

It absolutely is. If apologizing, you know, is a threat to the worth and it's easier to just blame or argue or disconnect, what is the cost to the armored manager?

KarenShulman: 8:36

Yeah, I think the the armored manager is somebody who uh doesn't really feel true intimacy or true connection with other people. Uh because if you think about it, people stop sharing honestly uh because there's no there's there's no trust. They don't trust that that boss, that manager, can handle the truth. I'm gonna the connection isn't there.

SaraBest: 9:00

The connection isn't there. If I think about, you know, we we've had on our podcast um Joyce Chen, who's a managing partner for the conscious leadership group. Uh the book that we love to ref, you know, follow and utilize in our work is The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Jim Detmer and Diana Chapman. But in the in that work, you know, what they say there is you drift from presence. All the armor is just a way to not be present in the moment with what's here now. And I you have new appreciation and understanding for how that's the way we survive. That's the way we make it through the day. There's a lot going on, and it makes a lot of sense. It does. Um, so can the armored manager change? Can they grow?

KarenShulman: 9:48

Yeah, I I think it's possible, but there this is somebody that's gonna have to do some some fairly deep emotional work. Yeah um, they might have to let go of those long-held defenses, yeah. And and and they have to really understand there is value in vulnerability. Some will probably be able to make that change and a lot probably won't.

SaraBest: 10:14

I had an experience recently where after moments of vulnerability, members in a group were able to ask others, did do you feel more separate from me as a result of what I just shared, or do you feel closer to me? And to a person, the hands are like, I feel closer. I feel I m I feel much more connected. I trust you more because I know you now, I know more about you. So there um there's a risk, but there is also an incredible payoff.

KarenShulman: 10:45

To be vulnerable makes you more human, and that's what people connect to.

SaraBest: 10:51

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 10:52

This the the common humanity.

SaraBest: 10:54

Yes. Absolutely. All right, what's the next kind of manager you want to talk about today?

KarenShulman: 11:00

Yeah. So the next kind of manager that has a tough time apologizing would be the disconnected manager. And that's that's a manager that is separate. They're detached. These are the folks that might appear aloof, disinterested, distant, unfriendly. They might even be on the cool or cold side. That might be how they come across. And, you know, maybe this is somebody that puts up a very strong facade that oftentimes is impenetrable.

SaraBest: 11:33

Yeah. So well, and I'm always like, okay, so what's behind that? And what you shared about, you know, disconnection from emotion, I know firsthand that it's so easy to build a a life really and a set of behaviors and practices around not feeling your emotions. Having taught about and trained and conducted assessments on emotional intelligence for the last 25 years, I am here to say I'm just now really appreciating and starting to understand and experience true emotion. And it's not that complex. Um, it's risky, it's scary. But yeah, we could just ask our listeners to maybe pause for a minute and just wherever they are on a walk in their car. Uh, don't close your eyes if you're driving, or or sitting at your desk or wherever you might be listening, to just sit check in and notice what's here now. Like what is the emotion? The conscious leadership group says, you know, anger, fear, sadness, joy, or what they call sexual feelings or creative energy. What's here now? And can you not explain it, not have to intellectualize it? Could you just get a sense of where it is in your body and what it's doing? I think that's powerful. So the disconnected leader ha has you know that facade. So what's the cost?

KarenShulman: 13:02

Well, and I would say I think the disconnected leader feels some emotion and recognizes some emotion, and what comes out is irritation or maybe even blame.

SaraBest: 13:15

Yeah, I I don't like this discomfort, so I'm gonna point the finger at you and say, you know, unconsciously, say, God, if you would just do this better, if you would just listen to what I said, if you would just take more time, if you would just do the right thing, we wouldn't be in this mess. You, you. Yeah.

KarenShulman: 13:34

Right. You, you, you.

SaraBest: 13:35

Yeah. Oh, that makes sense.

KarenShulman: 13:37

Yeah. And what it costs uh the the disconnected manager is again a the deep connection that they actually really crave. That's what they want. But it, you know, let's be honest. You you really can't feel truly loved or truly respected if you can't feel at all.

SaraBest: 13:54

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 13:55

And that's the cost.

SaraBest: 13:56

Is that similar, Karen, to the saying we've all heard, which is you can't give away what you don't have?

KarenShulman: 14:02

I I think that's a really good saying for what we're talking about. Absolutely.

SaraBest: 14:07

Well, so what's the possibility for change or growth or evolution for this disconnected leader?

KarenShulman: 14:13

Yeah, this is tough because this is a leader that's gonna have to really uh connect with their own emotional being, their own emotional life. They and it it it really isn't something that can be forced uh externally. Yeah, they have to do that themselves. And they have to want to do that themselves. And that's that's tough.

SaraBest: 14:35

Yeah, and as we're talking about, you know, these bosses, managers, leaders, you know, I know our episode our our podcast is is called the boss hole chronicles, and we we kind of uh use levity around the word boss hole, but I really feel a sense of appreciation for how that takes place. It's it's being human. It it's it doesn't matter if you have a title or not, it's just being in the human experience. And I'm feeling a little grace and compassion, not only for others, but for myself having adopted a lot of these things and and now becoming more aware of them.

KarenShulman: 15:17

This is a possible change, uh, but it's a difficult one.

SaraBest: 15:21

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 15:22

For sure.

SaraBest: 15:22

Heavy lifting and and the choice. It has to be by choice, of course.

KarenShulman: 15:26

You got it.

SaraBest: 15:26

Okay, so the third one we get to talk about is a little more complex and or maybe not more complex, but a little more difficult.

KarenShulman: 15:35

What do we call that one? This is the entitled manager, and that's a manager that feels that they have a right uh to benefits and privileges that you don't you know, others don't have. They they come across as feeling b that they're better than anybody else. They're the big person on campus, and everybody else is just a mere peon. And uh, you know, unfortunately, in the the entitled manager, uh they present usually somebody that they aren't. That's a pretty consistent thing.

SaraBest: 16:12

I'm thinking about if I've encountered the entitled manager much in my lifetime, and and there's been maybe a few instances, a couple, two or three, like my energy drops when I even think about them, and there's no it like there's no possibility. I feel a sense of no possibility to connect or be seen or heard with a person like that. What's behind you know the sense of entitlement? Do you have a thought on that?

KarenShulman: 16:43

I think that these are folks that uh be being questioned is really difficult for them because they put themselves on such a high pedestal that, you know, what they say is that's the way it is, and there's no need for questions. If there is any movement toward feeling any type of shame at all, which there probably isn't, but shame would imply that there's some level of equality and they don't see anybody else as having equal standing, especially in a managerial role uh that that they're in.

SaraBest: 17:18

And I'm guessing that's a huge blind spot. Like there's a there's an unawareness of that vibe, you know, that dominates all that.

KarenShulman: 17:28

Absolutely. What what do you think it costs the the entitled manager to be the way that they are?

SaraBest: 17:36

Yeah. I mean certainly respect. I think Lencioni did a a podcast episode or he's written about it in his book. Like it's the emperor with no clothes. Like it's so evident, at least in my experience, it's so evident that this is a person who just only sees things one way, and and it's so sometimes twisted and absurd that I can't help but feel some pity and sadness for them because they do not see that they're standing up there being high and mighty, but they're they don't have any clothes on. Like we see all that. That's what I think about. So respect and and probably ultimately control. Uh I mean people are gonna stop coming along. They're they're gonna move in a different direction, whether they're conscious of it or not. So I think that it's a fleeting kind of influence. It it may have influence initially out of fear, but then I think people wise up to that and you know, no love, no connection. We've been talking about that, isn't it? That's right.

KarenShulman: 18:42

That's right.

SaraBest: 18:43

Mm-hmm.

KarenShulman: 18:44

Yeah.

SaraBest: 18:45

Well, so can these people change or grow?

KarenShulman: 18:49

Uh I suppose it's possible, but of the three that we've talked about, the possibility for this one is is a lot lower.

Speaker 03: 18:57

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 18:58

Um, this is, you know, the other ones, you know, were more of skill skill-based problems. Yeah. Uh this one is more, this is like how they see the world.

SaraBest: 19:10

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 19:10

And unless that view changes, it would be very, very difficult for this type of manager to change.

SaraBest: 19:18

Well, that being said, you know, there are resources. I think one of the things we love to do is make these things available in our show notes. So here's what I'm thinking about. We'll certainly provide a link to Brene Brown's TED Talks. There's one on vulnerability and shame. There's another one, and I can't remember what it's called, but it unpacks shame a little bit more. We'll link to Uni Turratini's information and site, and even the blog that kind of was the inspiration for this episode, because I think she has a lot of really good stuff to say and share, and she can be a good resource. The other thing is the book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. And so if you're a listener, or if you're like me and you listen to this and go, well, great. It's great that that's the diagnosis. What do I do? You know, there's guidance all over the place. And in the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, there's direction for, you know, ways to feel your feelings and and offers ideas about how to get better at doing that. And it definitely outlines the benefits. But there are 15 different practices that I think are truly helpful. I've been uh a real disciple of the conscious leadership group last couple of years, and it's made a huge difference in me personally, and I think in the work that I do, and whatever it is, whatever the source is, I think Karen, what I'm taking away from you know what you shared today and what we talked about, it's it's doing some work. Be willing to look inside and go, what's really there? You know, what's the shame all about? A professional guide for that is super helpful. A coach, uh a therapist, there's so many good people out there who offer support in that way. But I guess the correlation, the final thing I'll say is we know the research tells us that in this day and age, what employees need is empathy, compassion, presence, and availability. If you're the kind of manager that doesn't know how to create that or give that, you might want to think about your relevance. Like, are you the right person to be a manager? What's your motive for being in that seat? Uh, there's a great book by Patrick Lencioni called The Motive. You know, are you responsibility-centered? Like you're willing to do whatever you need to do to be the best kind of manager for this person and this person and this person. Or are you entitled and are you there for the reward? And if you are, okay, then own that. Because I think I would not be on your team. Karen, what thoughts do you have as we kind of bring it home?

KarenShulman: 22:00

Yeah, I've I imagine that we have some listeners thinking, oh, you know, I think I'm probably working for somebody uh like that. I'm working for a bosshole that has some of these qualities. Yeah. And I think part of the learning is we we as human beings have to learn that sometimes we we can't change other people, but we can change ourselves.

Speaker 03: 22:20

Yeah.

KarenShulman: 22:20

And when you when you have to work with people that are like this, it is about you changing you and your responses and the way that you work with somebody like that. First of all, the first thing that comes to mind is to learn that these are people that I do not want to emulate if I'm ever in a supervisory or managerial role. They are teaching me what not to do, and oftentimes that's much easier to see than people that do managerial things well.

SaraBest: 22:48

Nice.

KarenShulman: 22:48

The second thing is I think you said it earlier, Sarah, that these are opportunities for you to practice compassion and grace with people that are like this. Because if you understand some of the rationale or some of the things that they're going through or where they're coming from, I think it is for you to practice compassion and grace for other people and also for yourself, your own reactions to working with somebody like that.

SaraBest: 23:17

Yeah. I got nothing to add, Karen. That was awesome. And I think a great way for us to head out of here, maybe feeling a little bit inspired to uh to notice and maybe attend to some of this stuff.

KarenShulman: 23:32

That's right. Because there's always opportunities for our own growth, right?

SaraBest: 23:36

100%. Well, and it and I'm okay. So I do have one more thing to say. I don't know if it was from AA or it's it's written about in almost everything that I've come to understand that it's just you know, it's like a spiritual axiom that when something about someone else disturbs you, the disturbance is in here. It's inside me. And they are in fact a mirror. You know, what we are unwilling and unable to accept in ourselves is that which we are uh um have aversion to in another. So that's something to pay a little bit of attention to, also.

KarenShulman: 24:10

Yeah, I like that. That's that's very true, Sarah. Very good.

SaraBest: 24:14

Well, Karen, we need to do this again. It's so great to uh have this conversation with you and um to get to connect in this way. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Pleasure. As always. Well, awesome. And to our friends out there in the Bosshole Transformation Nation, see you next time.

Annoucement: 24:36

Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.