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The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
Battle Tested! with Col. Jeffery McCausland (ret.) - Part 2
A battlefield can teach you more about leadership than a bookshelf ever will. We sit down with retired U.S. Army Colonel Jeffrey McCausland—former Dean of Academics at the U.S. Army War College and CEO of Diamond 6 Leadership and Strategy—to translate Gettysburg’s hard lessons into everyday decisions leaders face right now.
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Hello to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, welcoming you to part two of our conversation with Colonel Jeffrey McCausland. Part one was absolutely astounding. If you haven't listened to it, go back last week, listen to it, because we're going to continue on in that same vein about leadership and leadership traits and characteristics. And the conversation actually picks up as we talk about decision-making and decision-making styles and decision-making models that absolutely play a role in leadership throughout the ages. So step back and let's enjoy part two of our conversation with Jeffrey Makato. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. So when you talk about Colin Powell and 40 to 60 percent of the information, how is that related to the two-thirds, one-third rule, if you will, when it comes to timely decisions?
Jeff McCausland:Yes. In the military, what we always said was again, the perfect law is never executed because I'm still trying to make it perfect.
John Broer:Okay.
Jeff McCausland:So what I mean to do is very carefully say, okay, the time is now. I want my organization to begin doing something at some time in the future.
unknown:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Whatever time that exists between now and when I want them to begin, two-thirds of that time belongs to them. Okay, one-third of that time belongs to me. So that tells me when I need to issue my guidance and directive. Okay.
Speaker 1:Right.
Jeff McCausland:Because they need they need time to inform their people, organize, gather resources. If I if I hand them the order and say, and I'd like you to start right this second, okay, it could be a beautiful plan. Oh, by the way, gorgeous. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Um, but it's going to go very badly. Okay. So the two-thirds, one-third rule. And then I have two corollaries to that. One is that the no plan, we used to say in the army anyway, no plan survives the first round fire.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay.
Jeff McCausland:Because you're dealing in a dynamic environment, and you're dealing with a dynamic opponent, even if you're in business right now. Yeah. So if you if you do X, well, guess what? The enemy or your opponent can do Y. So I've got to adjust my plan on the fly. I mean, Eisenhower said plan is nothing, planning is everything.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Jeff McCausland:Okay? Yep. And then the second corollary I always tell people is what I call the good idea cutoff date. And the good idea cutoff date is as we're getting down there to the final moments to issue the plan, somebody runs up and has, Oh, I got this great new idea, which is going to change everything dramatically.
Speaker 2:Right.
Jeff McCausland:Okay. Well, and that's when you look at them and say, you know, write that down for the after action review. Okay. So we've passed the good idea cutoff date. Okay? Oh, okay. Unless unless you can prove to me making this dramatic change at the last minute's going to save lives or, you know, it's going to be really dramatic. Right. If it's just a marginal improvement, no, it's going to screw things up so badly in execution. It's not but do write it down. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to totally undermine you. It's a great idea for next time. Right. It's too late to implement that now.
John Broer:Yeah. Makes total sense. Uh, I love that cutoff date. And you know what else that makes me think about is uh, you know, we oftentimes reference Patrick Lincioni, who is known for the five dysfunctions of a team and a number, I mean, so many different uh books and and great programs that he offers, but he talks about leadership teams, or when we have a leadership team come together, that the one of the principles is we come together as a unit, and while we may disagree or may not agree on every detail, we commit. So he talks about disagree but commit. And I think that that's a powerful thing for leaders today. And I would imagine in the military, you know, you you you you will have troops that will question a decision or or challenge it. And it's like, listen, these are our orders, and we are committed to seeing this through, and this is how we're going to see it through. Human nature, that runs against human nature a lot of times. I I don't imagine it's very helpful in the military if you get some people that are constantly challenging it. But that's a hard thing for a leader to do if if in fact you feel I think that this would be a better or plan or an alternative, but that's not what we're doing.
Jeff McCausland:That brings you back to Gettysburg again. I mean, uh because I think Peter Longstreet is the guy in that particular position. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And his his challenge is really the following. Where does my loyalty lie?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Does my loyalty lie to the organization and what is I think is best for this organization? Or does my loyalty lie to my boss, who I've been through so much together? We've been so successful together in the past. They must have liked each other. Uh Longstreet loses a number of children in a uh in an epidemic during the war. He and his wife have several children after the war, and he names them all after Robert E. Lee, supposedly. So they must have liked each other. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:That's this is the dilemma that he's wrestling with, which is loyalty as the follower. Right. You know, followership is something you got to talk about. How do I be a good follower?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Jeff McCausland:Um, so the best I think you can try at is to say, okay, the following. One, okay, I don't agree with this, but I can see where this might work. So it's you know, I'll give you a 90% solution here, and so we'll we'll go that way. Okay. Or number but or number two is like totally reject this because I think it's unethical. We don't shoot prisoners in combat. If I'm ordered to do that, sorry. Right. Okay. Or I just think it's going to be disastrous, and then I would have personal and moral responsibility to resign. Okay. But back to no round, no plan survives the first round fired. We've tried to develop, particularly in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in the military, a concept called discipline disobedience. Discipline, disobedience. And to me, it's kind of a fancy way of describing initiative. You know? Yeah. Because we don't want we don't want people to be robots. We don't want people to blindly move ahead. You know, uh my read of the Russian army, which I have studied from the days of the Soviet Union, this sadly it has a culture which goes like this. If the plan doesn't work, it's because you're not trying hard enough.
unknown:Okay.
Jeff McCausland:Okay. Okay. If you beat your head against a wall, one of two things will give. Either the wall will collapse or your head will collapse. Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Jeff McCausland:And that's disastrous, okay? But that is the mentality. You know, we're gonna the the plan always is right, and it's just your problem. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Jeff McCausland:No, we want people that are gonna have a what I would call discipline disobedience, where the commander not only issues an order, but and I teach corporations this, uh, he he also or she also has to prevent what we call the commander's intent or the leadership intent. What am I trying to accomplish broadly?
Speaker 2:Right.
Jeff McCausland:Okay. So here's your order, but here's broadly what I want to accomplish. So within the that left and right, I am empowering you to show some degree of initiative or disciplined disobedience. And I would argue that the Battle of Gettysburg is won by the Union side, by the United States Army, because of disciplined disobedience.
John Broer:That happened in Little Roundtop, right? Exactly. Okay.
Jeff McCausland:Exactly. A guy named Strong Vincent, an attorney from Erie, Pennsylvania, is told to move his brigade into the wheat field where they're gonna get slammed. Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Jeff McCausland:And he encounters a courier who says, Hey, sir, the Army's lead engineer says we need troops on Little Roundtop. That engineer has no authority over him whatsoever. Vincent quickly sizes up the situation, looks at the ground, makes a quick assessment, and goes, you know, he's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Violates his orders, violates the plan, takes his troops to Little Roundtop just in time to stop the Confederate offensive against Little Roundtop, which would have, if they'd been successful, enveloped the southern end of the Union line. It'd have been a two-day battle and a Confederate victory.
John Broer:Yeah. I I am I am envisioning this right now because when you were taking us around, and I know Vincent was there was a farmhouse uh where they were stationed, correct? And you can actually see little Little Roundtop from there. Yeah, I mean it's such an absolute beautiful setting. It's the it just stirs in you just the emotion that m and and the the patriotism, if you will, about that day, uh realizing that both both sides were considered themselves patriots.
Jeff McCausland:I I mean, would you agree with that or I would agree that to it to some point, but at the same time, frankly, and now we're talking more history, and you um over time we have used the phrases union and confederate, okay, a lot. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Jeff McCausland:And um, I think over time, and this is a matter of historiography, uh, that has encouraged what's called the lost cause theory of history. Right. Which is a certain amount of moral equivalency that exists. And I frankly, personally, that's just me re-reject that. I'm I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Confederacy was fighting primarily to keep three million people in bondage. Right.
John Broer:And I agree with you. I totally but I think I think it I think then they both thought they were fighting for a just cause, which which which uh again, however you look at it, I totally agree with you, though. That is a fascinating area to study of the moral equivalency. You're absolutely right. Please go ahead. Go ahead.
Jeff McCausland:Yeah. Yeah. And the other part of that equation, though, back to leadership, is it also lends itself then to why do people fight all the time. Okay. And there's really two reasons they fight. Well, one is, and the military exemplifies this with the cultural icons of flags and uniforms and stuff. Uh we it we embrace certain uh notions of values and certain cultures, freedom, justice, the American way, all that kind of stuff. And that's epitomized in flags and bugles and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Jeff McCausland:But the other reason, and I've been in combat, I can tell you why people I think really fight at the ultimate end. But if we get right down to it, those things are important. Don't get me wrong, very important at what gets people to join the military in times or join an organization at a time of crisis. But when really at that moment when things are really going bad, John has never let me down. I'm not gonna let John down. If John's gonna continue, continue on, then I'm going with John.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:So if trust is what glues the leader to the organization, what holds the organization together is the cohesion of the group.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Jeff McCausland:And that and that's why you can see it happen, and a military is probably, again, the best example. You can have two infantry companies, which are exactly the same. Same number of people, same number of rifles, same number of weapons, same number of everything. Okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:And and one of them in a moment of crisis shatters, and the other one in a moment of crisis performs. And I think the two things that that ultimately that moment, at that critical moment, makes a difference is good leadership and cohesion amongst the team members. There's a great story of the uh first Minnesota, which on the second day of the Battle of Gaysburg, uh is ordered to attack, it's a regiment, to attack a Confederate brigade. It's about to penetrate the center of the Union line. Well, it's outnumbered six to one. Wow. Okay?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Jeff McCausland:And they and they make this attack and they halt that brigade, that's Confederate brigade. They suffer 82% casualties.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Jeff McCausland:It is the highest percentage of casualties of any unit on the field. And to me, they did that because we're all going together.
John Broer:You make me think of another, well, another war, another con military conflict. And I actually did with our mutual friend Rod Sanders. I actually had him on a podcast to talk about Band of Brothers and Easy Company and that idea of cohesion and what uh how that has been portrayed in literature and in film. Um, that's what you make me think about that. Uh that's that is powerful. It absolutely is powerful. Jeff, let me ask you this. This has been great, by the way. I I I would encourage everybody, of course, check out what Diamond Six does. You guys do just the coolest stuff. And it's not just Gettysburg. No. You will you will go. What are some of what are some of the other venues, if you will?
Jeff McCausland:We do uh actually use the attack on Pearl Harbor as a case study as well. And we do that, of course, in Honolulu, it's the ideal place to do it. Uh but we we can do it anywhere as we can do Gettysburg anywhere, and we use video in lieu of physically being on the field.
Speaker 1:Right.
Jeff McCausland:Uh we also do uh the the Battle of Yorktown, which is a very and if you think about it, uh, Yorktown and Gettysburg, I would argue, are the two most decisive battles in American history because in both cases the entire fusion of the nation hangs in the balance of an afternoon. That's true. If you lose a Gettysburg, we're two countries, probably. And if you lose a Yorktown, we're still using pounds and pence. So we do those those three, and then we occasionally have done the Alamo. I had some Texas clients, which was always fascinating. Oh, yeah. Uh and we've done Apollo 13, which is fascinating. Again, really, it's this issue of cohesion because all organizations have a certain amount of cohesion. Any any organ any organization during COVID, I'm telling you, the cohesion of the team hanging together was critically important, just as much as going into battle.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Jeff McCausland:And then we do another one uh for senior groups, uh, I've done frequently out in California at the though I could do it anywhere, at the Nixon Library uh uh on Watergate, and on a particular period of time during Watergate called the Saturday Night Mask, which talks about senior leaders, talks about ethics, talks about integrity, talks about trust and aspects of crisis leadership in a crisis, and and things like you know, power of groupthink and organizations and how that affects choice during crisis.
John Broer:Right. Oh, that's fascinating. Jeff, as we start to wrap things up, I want to talk about your book. And actually, books. Uh, there's I'm gonna talk about and go into the show notes, everybody. Um, there is a link to Jeff's book, and you co-wrote this, co-authored it with Tom Vossler. Is that correct? And it's called Battle Tested Gettysburg Leadership Lessons for 21st Century Leaders. What I love is that you give the vignettes, you talk about the history, you talk about the leaders in the battle from both the Union and the Confederate side, but then you pull it forward and say, How does this apply here? What was the inspiration behind this? Just to try to link those two things?
Jeff McCausland:Well, the inspiration was that I had been Dean of the United States Army War College, and the Gettysburg National Military Park was actually created after the Civil War really as a place for officers to go and do what we would call uh a staff run. Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Jeff McCausland:Uh, which is primarily looking at strategy, tactics, and operations. So as Dean of the War College, every year we would take the incoming class down to Gettysburg, you know, and torture them for a day on the battlefield. Uh, and it occurred to me, having done that frequently, that this was really a case study on leadership.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:And if you I talked to a civilian audience, I would probably not talk as much about some of the technical aspects as I would for the militaries.
Speaker 2:Right.
Jeff McCausland:But what we're talking about is leaders at a difficult moment having to make decisions. And what and it's really leadership in a crisis. Because a battle is really two organizations that are both in a crisis. And what does a crisis do? Well, a crisis compresses time, reduces the amount of information we have, but we still have to make choice. And that to me served as a natural sort of uh laboratory to do that. Furthermore, I was convinced of the following, and that is, and John, I think you I know you're gonna agree because you've been so enthusiastic, that people enjoy this. I could sit in a classroom and I could talk about the concepts and I could use PowerPoint and all kinds of arrows and all that stuff, and just bore them to tears.
Speaker 4:Right.
Jeff McCausland:Um, but if you do it on the field where this actually happened, it has what I call an intellectual stickiness that I'll remember the concept now because I associate it with a story. I I was privileged to go to a talk by Ken Burns, the noted documentarian. And if you ever get a chance to listen to Ken Burns, do it. He's an amazing guy.
Speaker 2:How bad.
Jeff McCausland:But but during this particular presentation, and what he was talking about was the power of stories. That's what he was really talking about. And he said, you know, uh, if you try to convince somebody of someone of something and you all you use is concepts, you're probably gonna fail.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:But but but if you use a good story, you you got a chance. Okay? And I think that's so true. And then furthermore, by doing it with groups, particularly from a certain organizations and putting them in roles to make choices, we're not trying to test their historical prowess. We're trying to see what they would do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:They interact with the people that they work for every day. And I find in the aftermath, I hear back from the organizations we work with how that has powerfully contributed to cohesion in the team.
unknown:Right.
Jeff McCausland:We've learned together. We now have a common language, now have a common experience. We'll reflect on that. And it serves not only to develop, I think, people individually, but to develop the organization collectively.
John Broer:Yeah. I hope our our listeners are really grasping onto that, Jeff, because some would say, well, man, we when we're recruiting, we're recruiting from the top flight schools, or we're looking for people that are the highest performers in their field, and yet they wonder why performance is substandard, or there's disengagement within the ranks. There's some there's something missing. And that that element is that cohesion, it's that understanding between people, it's that trust. Patrick Lencioni would call it vulnerability-based trust, that that I know you've got my back because you know I've got yours. And we can, and it's you can't manufacture that artificially. Yeah, you can work on it, and it it is work. That is the grind. That is the grind of building that cohesion, but it is absolutely worth it, no doubt. No doubt.
Jeff McCausland:Yeah, I'd even go one step even farther, John. I would say what you're actually doing ultimately is you're building organizational culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Jeff McCausland:And and uh I would go I would tell any leader, in my opinion, particularly for large organizations, perhaps the number one job of any leader in a large organization is to build, modify, or at times destroy aspects of the organizational culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Okay. And you have to think through that very, very hard. And that's exactly what we're doing. Uh I worked with a very large school district in California. And over time, they would send for about 10 years or so, they would send about 30 of their employees, not only teachers, but administrators, people who worked in a classified job, building and grounds, food service, transportation, etc. And so we do a cohort every year. And after five or six years, I was talking with the superintendent. I said, tell me the effect on on you, on your organ. I said, Jeff, you don't understand. You have changed the culture. Now I've got 10, 15, 20 percent of my employees that have had this common experience. So now it's affecting our identity. It's affecting, again, how we talk to each other and what we talk about, uh, to it to the point that we're actually have changed the culture, which I thought was a wonderfully inspiring thing to be told.
John Broer:Well, the and and and it's it's a great reflection on the transformational work you do. Uh yeah, we say we say that culture is a result, it's not a remedy. You cannot artificially create a culture and make it stick. You got to go way upstream. And I think that's what you're saying. We're gonna take you out, we're gonna give this suspended disbelief, we're taking you out of your norm, and we're gonna put you in a place that's gonna totally change the way you see these lessons, these people, these experiences. That's so cool. And and what a uh what a great feeling that must, that must uh give you in terms of, well, fulfill fulfillment. That's why you do this work. Yeah. Is that so? Let me ask you, um, before I hit record, you told me that you're working on another book, Leadership in Four Directions. Can you, is it okay to give our audience a little preview of what that's going to be?
Jeff McCausland:Sure, sure. Um way back at the beginning of all this, I developed this concept, which we began using early on and actually taught taught courses. We actually have a course called Leadership Four Directions.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Jeff McCausland:That we teach corporate groups online. Okay. And basically what my argument was is that as a model, as a paradigm, everybody leads in four directions. Back to the point you made early on that people lead from where they are. Okay? Everybody leads the boss. And smart bosses want to be led, but then it's incumbent on the boss to create a climate whereby he or she can be led. And that takes a certain amount of courage. I need to be a little bit vulnerable to listen to people. I always say, if you're the captain of a ship, you know, a sailor runs up to you and you're the captain of the ship and says, Hey Captain, by the way, we're six inches from an iceberg. Well, that's interesting. It just doesn't have it just doesn't have to be terribly useful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay.
Jeff McCausland:What you want is that sailor to run up to you and say, hey, Captain, we're six miles from an iceberg. Now that's interesting, and that is useful.
unknown:Yes.
Jeff McCausland:But again, it takes courage on the boss to create that climate whereby that sailor is willing to do that. It takes courage on his behalf that he needs to know he's empowered to do that. And that the boss is going to do perhaps the most important thing a leader can do, and that is listen. Okay. The second uh second dimension in no particular order is everybody leads others. That's what we 90% of all the literature and leadership is about leading others. You stop in a bookstore at an airport, they'll have two or three racks on leadership and management, which is all about leading others. You and I both know that. Um, but I would say of the four dimensions, it's the easiest. It's not easy, it's the easiest because it has to do oftentimes with really more management theory. There's a hierarchy. We know what we're all about.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Jeff McCausland:Third dimension I often talk about is everybody leads or led by their peer group. You see this particularly in pr the professional domain. If you work with a doctor's group or or lawyers or military officers, perhaps theologians, educators, but in business as well. Where does my loyalty lie? Does my loyalty lie to the values of the organization? Or does my loyalty lie to my teammate who I've been through hell with? You know, this person here just is and that can bring on, you know, conflicts of choice on the on on people's uh on people uh as they have a difficult time to do. Also, your peers are what help you build, I would say, grit. And there's a lot of writing on grit, resilience. Yeah, they're gonna they're gonna hang with you at difficult times. And also there's a great amount of peer mentorship. You know, yeah you'll listen to a lot of people, but you'll listen to uh a peer perhaps a little bit more carefully. Okay? Yeah. So pure pure mentorship, grit are are parts of um uh leading or being led by your peer group, and there's but there's that danger of conflict of loyalty. And then last but not least is everybody leads themselves. You know, I like to say sociologists say people make 500 or more decisions every single day. We all make the same decision to start with, and that is do I hit the snooze alarm on the alarm clock or not? That's the first decision of the day. We make all these decisions, but we have to think about how are we leading ourselves? How do I balance out caring for myself? How do I balance out caring for my position? And as I go up to higher and higher positions of responsibility, that'll make more and more demands on me. Yep. And then how do I how do I manage the um those relationships that are incredibly important? My my family, not only my immediate family, but I've got aging parents or those kind of issues to do. Right, right. So I always say, you know, I used to call it, you know, that um that you're you're trying to see a degree of balance between those three variables. Then I realized balance didn't describe it well because it's kind of like there's a mathematical equation that I can balance demands of organization, demands of family, and demands of just being me. And it's really more a harmony between those three things.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Jeff McCausland:Okay, and if you get one of those out of whack, you you gotta get it back into whack.
John Broer:Yeah, you feel you you feel that or you hear that disharmony pretty quickly. Right, right.
Jeff McCausland:If I have a major you know health issue, but okay, at some point in time I gotta handle that, I gotta focus on that.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Jeff McCausland:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Jeff McCausland:Then when it starts, then I gotta get back into you know, focusing on my family and focusing on others or focusing on the job. Yeah, or if I've got a really important thing with the job, I'll go to the family and say, hey, for the next week, you're not gonna see much of me because I'm crashing on something. But I gotta keep in mind when that week's over, I gotta I gotta bring this back into some kind of harm.
John Broer:Love it. Well, I'm I'm gonna ask you, um, let's make a deal. When that book publishes, please let me know because I would love to dive into that more and and really give some time to talk about those those four directions. I think that would be super helpful to our audience.
Jeff McCausland:Thanks, Phil. I'd love to do that.
John Broer:Uh, Jeff, this has been good. And and I know we're gonna be talking more. Uh, I've got some, I think we've got some great opportunities to work together, uh, our two organizations, but I want to encourage everybody, go check out Diamond Six, um, Jeff's company, get the book battle tested, learn more about the remarkable work these guys are doing. And um, you know what? Just realize that we we really can learn a lot from history. The echoes of the past absolutely can inform the challenges of today. So take advantage of all this these great resources. But uh, thank you again. I appreciate it.
Jeff McCausland:My pleasure, John.
John Broer:Thanks again, everybody, for listening in, and we will see you next time on the Boss Hole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Boss Hole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshold Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.