TBC Flashback: Heather Haas - Finding the "People-First" Managers

Want a culture that actually improves performance instead of living on a poster? We sat down with Heather Haas, CEO at Advisa and Predictive Index Certified Partner, to explore a clear, practical path to compassionate leadership that drives real results. The conversation centers on four levels of connection—job, manager, team, and culture—and how leaders can use each to reduce friction, boost engagement, and help people thrive.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Flashback Setup And Why It Matters
• 1:35 Introducing Heather And Compassionate Leadership
• 2:01 Four Levels Of Connection Explained
• 6:13 Sequencing Connection And Hiring For Values
• 8:17 Managing Large Teams With Group Coaching
• 12:43 How Might We Questions And Psychological Safety
• 15:52 Sponsor Break: Talent Optimization
• 17:03 Culture Carriers And Leader Shadow
• 20:30 Intentional Vs Aspirational Values
• 23:58 70-20-10 And The Pickle Jar Metaphor
• 27:12 Reinventing Managers: Compassion, Safety, Gratitude
• 29:00 Thriving Cultures As Competitive Advantage
• 31:14 Key Takeaways And Closing

Transcript

John Broer: 0:04

A warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The BossholeF Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, bringing you this week a TBC flashback. And we are going to be bringing out of The BossholeF Chronicles Archives an episode we did in the spring of 2023 with Heather Haas. Now, Heather is one of our favorite people. She is the CEO of Advisor out of Indianapolis, which is an amazing certified partner of Predictive Index, a fellow certified partner like Real Good Ventures, and her whole focus on helping people thrive in the workplace will become evident in this discussion. But the reason I'm bringing it back this week is because we are still asking the same questions that Heather poses. You know, so many organizations seem to be seeking out answers that are readily available. So I thought, let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's hear from Heather again and start to think about how do we help our managers, our supervisors, our individual contributors really thrive, and let's be committed to it. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. So, Heather, great to have you here on the Boss Hole Chronicles. And let's just start out with some work that I saw you were doing recently around compassionate leadership. And I know that you're going to share with our leaders, you know, different things that you're doing around leadership development, but you know, give us, you know, a little bit more depth around the framework of compassionate leadership and how it informs the other work that you do.

Heather Haas: 1:59

Yeah, thanks, John. It's great to be here. I think one of the trends that we're seeing come up frequently with our clients and our leaders is that their people are struggling. And, you know, even now that we've been back from the pandemic for some time and many organizations have figured out hybrid or we're back in the office, whatever those things, I think people are still reeling a little bit. And the role of leading and managing has shifted dramatically. We didn't come back to this to the same job. So that's given rise to a lot of um conversations around how do we help people find their footing again? How do we rekindle the connections that we've had? And how how do I help my team who I sense and I know is struggling with mental health issues or anxiety or or just finding their way again to being productive back in the workplace. So that's kind of what's bubbled up to where we've been able to try to make it practical for leaders. The topic of compassion or emotional intelligence or empathy, I think for some leaders and managers is the touchy thheely stuff. And I don't know how to do that. So one of the ways that we've tried to make this more practical is to talk about the idea of connection. And that connection is the medium through which compassion or empathy or coaching or feedback is gonna flow.

John Broer: 3:32

Okay.

Heather Haas: 3:33

So we break it down into four levels of connection. The first place that employees need to feel connected is to their job. So that's really about a leader helping ensure that that employee understands where their strengths fit in the role. It's about job fit and it's about do I have the tools, materials, equipment to do my job at an excellent level. So it might sound like what does that have to do with compassion? But that's actually a very caring thing to do for a manager to look out for that and make sure that that level of connection is there. Once that's there, um, the connection between an individual employee and their direct supervisor is everything. I mean, you've read all the research about, you know, some some would say that that relationship alone has more correlation to employee engagement than any other factor. So we spend a lot of time, you know, helping leaders, you know, very practically, you need to have one-on-ones. And in those one-on-ones, you need to take a moment to check in personally with people and not make it just about progress and problems. So teaching them how to how to build that human connection between manager and direct report. The third layer of connection is helping people connect with their peers on their team. And so, very practically, that starts with goals and roles. Where does my work begin and end relative to Sarah's? And how do we process um challenges as a team? And how do we together as a team focus on improvement? So when employees feel connected with that group of people and leaders spend some time team building and allowing some time in team meetings for some personal connecting, that really helps solder that. And then the fourth level of connection is helping people feel connected to the culture or the mission, vision, values of the organization.

John Broer: 5:40

Right.

Heather Haas: 5:40

And we know that younger generation workers want more than a job. They want their personal values to be aligned with the values of the organization and they want to be doing meaningful work. So we help leaders bridge that gap and really um make sure that mission, vision, values are alive and well, and that we're talking to people specifically and helping them plug into that.

John Broer: 6:09

Heather, let me ask you, is there something significant to that sequencing? Do they happen all in tandem? Or I mean, for example, mission, vision, values, absolutely critical, but a lot of times that's where people start. Yep. And that can I mean, we oftentimes say culture is a result, it's not a remedy. So when you think about the job, the manager connection, team connection, and then connection and mission vision values, is that intentional or or can it get mixed up or or happen in different a different order?

Heather Haas: 6:41

I think it can totally happen in a different order. And I'll give you an example. We we worked with a client. Um, we had done some very specific work to help them codify their core values and break those down into behavioral terms because they recognized that our values are the pillars of our intentional culture. And we know the type of culture we need to achieve these business goals. Once they had those really clearly specified, we actually help them use those in recruiting. So back to what I just said about, you know, younger generation workers, they want to work somewhere where they feel um missionally connected and the values are aligned. So, to your question about does it have to be job fit first? And then, no, and in this case, they went on the offense with this is who we are, this is our corporate character, these are our core values, and we're looking to hire talent. If this speaks to you and if this aligns with who you are and what's important to you, we we should talk. And so, you know, then in the interview, it was unpacking all that. And so that's an example of leading with connection to the organization and to the culture. Then once you get people in, now you have to deliver on the promise of all the other things. I'm gonna connect you to your team, right? We're gonna get support from your manager, and we're gonna make sure that we're hiring you into a role where you get to use your strengths.

John Broer: 8:12

Yeah.

Sara Best: 8:12

I can't help but think about the current job market and the challenges we've had. What if leaders? It's kind of an off-the-while question, Heather. What if leaders are are only able to secure people when they're unsure about that values, that you know, that connection to the values that do you know what I'm saying? Like, what do we do if we just get who we get? You know, we we're desperate for bodies. Some of our organizations still are, even though on the other side of that spectrum, organizations are laying off thousands of people, but there's still that rub. What any thoughts about the four levels there?

Heather Haas: 8:51

That's where I think you start with the job connection. We've got to have humans in the seats to drive the bus where we're trying to go. You know, we've got to have people in the roles to do the work. So let's start there. Let's make sure people have the tools and materials. Let's use tools like predictive index and behavioral assessments and job assessments to really make sure job fit is there. Then you can build on it. Then you can say, okay, these people might not live and breathe our core values. They might not even care, honestly. But what we can do is we can help them thrive in that role. We can make sure that leaders and managers can build that connection at that level.

Sara Best: 9:32

That was good. That was a great answer. Thank you. You know, I I think for some organizations it is a still a very clear and present challenge. Not so much for others.

John Broer: 9:42

If I may, I just want to circle back to the second one of your levels of connection, manager and direct report. And what we talk about too is sometimes, you know, nobody is born to be a bosshole. And what happens is sometimes this the structure or just the logistics of a manager's team makes those one-on-one, meaningful connections very difficult. I mean, me, you know, if you have four or five direct reports, that's more manageable. You you should be investing that time in working with connecting with your direct reports. But we have managers that are overseeing 15 or 20 people. There's no way that can happen with any anything meaningful or substantive. So sometimes the organizations inadvertently kind of shove managers into the bosshold zone and they show up that way because they just don't have the time to really develop their people. I just think that's such a great takeaway for our listeners.

Heather Haas: 10:40

Well, it it absolutely is, and it's it's a great example of um, you know, the reality that we have to create the conditions within the organization for the connection to thrive. You know, some you you're right, John. There are a lot of companies still that have a disconnect. They say one thing. We we want our employees and our managers to be having one-on-ones and engaging in coaching. And that's the kind of company we want to be, coaching and development focused. That's great. But if a manager has a hundred direct reports or 50 or whatever it is spread out all over, we never get to see them. And there's no time or emphasis placed on creating the space for that, that is that's not gonna work. So I do think you have to spend as much time thinking about the conditions within the organization that are gonna support connection and relationship building, um, or whatever your values are for that matter, so that you can get things aligned when there is misalignment. But one practical example that I would give to your point about managers who have that many people is sometimes what we've put together for our clients is how do you do some group coaching, right? So bring three or four of your direct reports together once a month and structure that in a way that there is some sharing and caring at the beginning. You know, hey, share something you've you've learned recently, or everybody, real quick before we dive into the progress updates, let tell me what vacation you're looking forward to. It's whatever the thing, but connection before content. Then get into whatever it is you need to get into. So it takes maybe instead of 50 one-on-ones that you have to try to fit in in a month, you're taking that down to 15.

John Broer: 12:38

Right.

Heather Haas: 12:38

And it's more manageable. And you're killing two birds with one stone, those three or four people are building connections with each other, and you are um getting more invested and more involved uh relationally with each of them.

Sara Best: 12:52

That is I think that's a fantastic uh key takeaway for our listeners, Heather. I love that one. The other thing we can't um step around that's a side benefit of doing that, is the opportunity for individuals to learn when others are sharing their experience. So when a manager is helping a direct report deal with an issue, everybody listening can can take away from that, can see themselves in that situation. So there's a truly an added bonus to um expanding people's experience by way of dealing with everybody in the group. So that's a good one.

Heather Haas: 13:28

100%. There is a little bit of skill building that we work on with leaders who are gonna try to do the the one-on-one in more of a group format. Yes. In the sense that when you're processing an issue, you you've got you've got to be sensitive to if Sarah brings an issue, I can't attack Sarah or I can't. So the skill that we that we teach in those more group settings is to use what we call how might we questions. So somebody brings forward, hey, this is a challenge that I'm having, you know, this is happening, I'm super frustrated. When the leader listens and kind of empathizes, like, okay, wow, Sarah, it sounds like that's really a hard thing right now. I get it. We are, we are not, uh, we don't have the resources that we need at this moment. We're working on it. I hear you. So everyone, you know, how might we um make this situation a little better um in the short term, knowing that the long-term fix is out there? And the subtle thing that that does is instead of it being Sarah's problem, now it's the leader kind of locking arms with Sarah and saying, Hey, how can we together problem solve this? And it's to your point earlier, John, about compassion. That's a very compassionate way to enter into from the commiserating or empathizing. How do we move then into, okay, we got to fix this?

John Broer: 14:56

Right.

Heather Haas: 14:57

This is a problem, we need to get it. But the how might we is a bridge to get there that feels that person feels heard and they feel cared about in the process, and they don't feel alone. They feel like we're in this together.

John Broer: 15:12

That's that does not come naturally for a lot of people, and that does need to be taught. That's great. That is such great advice. Okay. And this is managers out there, listen to this stuff. Go ahead, Sarah. Sorry.

Sara Best: 15:21

Yeah. Well, I just want to comment too. This is such a natural and great way to open up the box for other ideas. I mean, when there's a problem to solve, if it's just you and I talking, we might come up with a great answer. But if there's four or five of us and there's some shared ownership in a non-threatening environment, who knows what can be produced and how valuable that can be. Absolutely.

John Broer: 15:46

And we will be right back.

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John Broer: 17:00

Okay, let's get back to the program. So something else you talk about, Heather, in your work. I love this term, culture carriers. Uh share with our listeners a little bit more about how at Advisa and in your work you address and present the idea of culture carriers.

Heather Haas: 17:19

Well, at our core, I mean, we believe culture can be a distinct competitive advantage. So, you know, organizations who are figuring that out are going to be better equipped to win the talent that they need to thrive and keep the talent that they need to grow. So that that as a premise, I think is important to understanding when we're doing our leader effectiveness programming, we're helping leaders claim that, you know, title, if you will, as of culture carrier. But helping them see that, you know, your mindsets and behaviors day in and day out with people cast a shadow. And the shadow of a leader is what ultimately is going to infiltrate and influence the culture of the organization. So, you know, while culture is a result, I agree with you, you know, not a remedy. There are ways that you can get ahead of it and start to help leaders realize that you are actually the tip of the spear to changing the culture. So the key though is we we do a lot of work, we have a kind of a process for helping organizations define the intentional culture that's going to be required to hit their goals. And it starts with the executive team. I always say that, you know, leader effectiveness cannot be delegated. The executive team of the organization has to relentlessly pursue leadership effectiveness. And part of that means we have to get aligned and clear on our core values and how those form the pillars of our intentional culture. So that session that we do with leaders is um very facilitative, but we're keeping them in a room for a day to really wrestle with what is our corporate character and what are the things we need leaders to say and do to be effective activating or carrying this culture that we know we need to be competitive and to win both employees and customers. And I think once that light bulb goes off, in my experience for leaders and they're like, oh, I get it. Like, yeah, I have a day job. I have to perform the function of my role.

John Broer: 19:47

Right.

Heather Haas: 19:47

The reason we use the word carrier, culture carrier, is because I love the metaphor of uh-huh, you walk into work every day and you have your day job and you open your laptop, but you also have to bend down and pick up that intentional culture and carry that in with you and around with you all day as you're doing what you do for your day job, so to speak. And I think once leaders kind of that switch flips for them, they're like, oh my gosh, I get it. Um, it can be very transformative.

John Broer: 20:20

I'll bet. I'll bet. And and I think that's when leaders, managers, maybe even for the first time, realize, oh my gosh, I'm this is like being in a fishbowl. I mean, people are watching and observing all the time. So it's that's a I love the I love the imagery of carrying and lit literally picking it up, and this is something that we talk about. We we want to live this out. That's great. That is great.

Sara Best: 20:46

I want to ask a question too. Intentional values, uh, Heather, versus aspirational values. You know, I think there's conflicting ideas out there. You can't claim, you know, let's say, for example, we were looking at Patrick Lincioni's advantage and the six critical questions. That second one is second or third one, how do we behave? That's really the essence of your core values. Is it okay to say how how do we really want to behave? We don't always behave this way, but we'd really like to behave this way, or is it more important for an organization to distill down to, uh, I mean, I think I'm answering my own question as I think about it. Like it's always going to be aspirational, yes? Or intentional? Tell me what you say about that.

Heather Haas: 21:27

To a certain extent, um, I do think it I do think it's wise for organizations to think about the aspirational piece. What kind of behaviors, what kind of culture do we need around here to get where we're trying to go? Right. And instead of being, because we we have a little assessment that we do on the front end of that executive work called the the leader and culture assessment, what we're measuring there is actually the delta between where are we today with you know effective leader behaviors and culturally, where are we trying to go? Because that delta is the space for training and development, or to bring in tools and systems that help us on the path. So just like any of us in our personal lives, we all have personal values, we all aspire to be to be a certain type of parent, spouse, human, partner. We fail. We fall short.

John Broer: 22:24

Right.

Heather Haas: 22:25

So it's not, it's not about we're, you know, obviously it's not it's not about perfection, but it is about the clarity that comes when you get an executive team aligned around, no, these are the precious few things that we all need to be saying and doing with consistency. And we're not gonna do it perfectly today, but we can invest in learning experiences that will help our leaders and managers retool and get to a point where they know what am I supposed to be doing day in and day out to bring this culture to life. What I find happens though more frequently, Sarah, is people stop short of the development. They put all these lofty goals and aspirations out there. Yeah. And then it's like, okay, cool, good luck. And leaders magic. You just made it harder. You just you raised the bar, which is great, but I don't have any additional tools, resources, experiences, or development to help me get there.

Sara Best: 23:31

And what a great segue that is to the other important of the three key ideas we wanted to talk with you about today, Heather. It's it's how learning and change, there's a formula for bringing that forward. So for the organizations who are willing to go further, to not stop there and go, yeah, we did it. They're hanging on the wall and yeah, they're magically gonna happen now. Woohoo! Uh, there's there's a formula for how best to develop leaders. Tell us, and it's not a new idea. Well, we love your take on it. Share with us.

Heather Haas: 24:03

Yeah, it's not a new idea at all. I mean, for a long time, um, research in adult learning um has shown that really only 10% of behavior change or learning happens, you know, in the workshop. We we go to the event or we go to the training. Um, you know, 10% happens there and it's a valuable 10%. 20% of learning and change with adults happens through relationship, through, through mentorship and the coaching or the feedback, et cetera, that we might receive from other people, or even the social pressure that we might feel from our peers who are saying and doing. So that's a very powerful element of learning and change. So we got the 10% in the classroom, we got the 20% that's that's social or relational. Um, but 70% of change happens back on the job. It's the environment. Um and so we at Advisa are very focused sort of on the difference between leader development and leader effectiveness. Effectiveness is broader and bigger, and it's about results. And if you're talking about helping leaders be more effective day to day on the job, you have to address the 70%.

Sara Best: 25:23

Yeah.

Heather Haas: 25:24

And another metaphor that we use when we teach this is if you think of a pickle jar, you can take the pickle out of the brine, right? And you can wash it off, wash off all the salt. Which is like take the the leader and send them to the fancy workshop. That's great. You take them out of their environment and they go get all tuned up. But if you put that pickle back in the brine, it's salty again.

John Broer: 25:50

Right.

Heather Haas: 25:51

Yeah. So we need to stop the the thinking, I believe, that all it is is send them to development. Send them out. It's that plus, it's both. It's that, that's important because you we are firm, your firm, we all do a lot of development. So this isn't me saying we should stop doing it. It's me saying we should recognize that if what we really want is organizational change and results back on the job, we've got to create the conditions and make some of the changes structurally, policy-wise, and organizationally to support leaders in bringing new behaviors, mindsets, and models uh back to the job.

John Broer: 26:36

Heather, those are those are great, great takeaways for our listeners. Um, actually, I was jotting down some notes because just in this year, in our or in this season of the Boss Hole Chronicles, we have introduced, let me back up for a second. What I find so interesting is that we are in the mission at Real Good Ventures, in the mission of reinventing the manager. I mean, we we made that very clear at the beginning of 2022. We cannot have managers that are working from an old model of command and control. There, there is there has to be a new way, and it's around developing people. But what I find so interesting is in this season of the Boss Hole Chronicles, we have talked about now compassion in leadership. We talked about peace building from Dr. Jeremy Pollack, which which I'll put that link to that podcast in the um in the show notes. The fearless organization around psychological safety with Aid Me Edmondson, which isn't new, but absolutely needs to be forefront and gratitude. I mean, things that, you know, traditionally we don't talk about when it comes to being a manager, supervisor, leader, and they are absolutely essential. And I'm just so I'm just so pleased that you've shared this with our listeners. What's what's on the horizon for you?

Heather Haas: 27:51

Well, I mean, at Advisa, we're focused on building effective teams, leaders, and cultures because we believe that everyone deserves the opportunity to thrive at work. So that that last card there, opportunity to thrive at work, that's really what gets us out of bed in the morning. And, you know, we we believe that leaders and managers have so much influence over the mental health and well-being of their people. And imagine if more people got to go to work every day in an environment where they were truly cared for, cared about, and challenged to be the best version of them of themselves. So we believe all that's really noble work. So what's next for us really is to continue growing that part of our business, the the part that is focused on finding what I call people first leaders, executives who recognize that our people and our culture can be a competitive advantage. Yes. And our culture can either be magnetic, attracting and keeping the right people that we need to grow and prosper, or it's gonna repel. So we're looking for more of those executives who are ready to take a very strategic and intentional approach to developing culture and in particular recognizing that once you get clear on the kind of culture you need and the values that represent it, the way that you activate that is through the mindsets and behaviors of your leaders. So the leader effectiveness work that we're doing to create experiences where leaders have the space, the support, um, to not only learn the things and develop their own um self awareness and clarity about the kind of leader they want to be, but then they also have the tools, resources, and support back on the job. To be effective. So it's really, it's really fun work.

John Broer: 30:05

Um rewarding. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great.

Sara Best: 30:10

It's like music to our ears, right, John? It is. Truly. Well, I think our missions are very aligned, and our goal is to help people be the best they can be, but find joy and fulfillment in what they do. And you're right, it's the leader, it's the manager, it's the supervisor who helps to make that possible. For sure.

John Broer: 30:28

Well, listen, Heather, thanks again. This has been awesome. Um, keep up the great work. We just really enjoy our association with you. And uh I know our listeners will uh have been have benefited from your um what you've shared today. So that's great.

Heather Haas: 30:42

Well, I really appreciate that you reached out to me. It's it's very it's very kind of you to acknowledge or or you know be aware of what we're doing. And um certainly I have great respect for what you all are doing too. I mean, we're in the same we're in the same sandbox um trying to trying to fight the good fight. So my best. But you know what? It's go ahead, John.

John Broer: 31:04

It's a big sandbox and there's a lot of work to do.

Sara Best: 31:06

Yeah, yeah, it's a big sandbox and there's room for everybody. And, you know, just in in summary, connection is crucial. Leaders are culture carriers, and you can't just sit send people away to a classroom. You've got to help them foster relationships, and you also have to create experiences and environment on the job where the pickle juice is changed. There we go.

John Broer: 31:28

There you go. That could be another title right there. And now, Heather, you are part of the Boss Hole Transformation Nation.

Heather Haas: 31:34

I love it. Yeah, you guys created such an amazing thing with this. I'm cheering for you and thanks again for the opportunity. It was fun. Yeah, you're a bright light, Heather. Keep up the great work. Thank you.

Sara Best: 31:46

Take care. Yep. See you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles.

John Broer: 31:52

Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Boss Hole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at thebossholechronicles.com. We'll see you next time.