The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
Lisa X. Walden: The Future of Work is Human (Part 1)
The ground beneath work has shifted, and many leaders are still wearing shoes from another era. We dig into the “great chasm” between how managers were taught to lead and what today’s teams actually need, with guest Lisa Walden bringing sharp insight from her book The Future of Work Is Human. This first part of our three-part series tackles the return-to-office debate without clichés, showing why mandates may fill desks but drain trust—and how a clear why, intentional connection, and outcomes-first thinking can turn flexibility into a competitive edge.
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A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, welcoming you to another installment of The Bosshole Chronicles. And by the way, this is the first in the five years that we've been doing the Bosshole Chronicles, we've had one-part episodes, two-part episodes, but this will be our first three-part episode. And joining me in this interview is none other than Hannah Best, another member of the Real Good Ventures team. We're very excited to introduce you to Lisa Walden. Now, Hannah and I attended an event where Lisa was speaking, and we knew right away she's got to be on the program. And you're going to learn about Lisa and her work with her business partner, who's also named Hannah, by the way. But a lot of our discussion is going to come from the book that both Hannah and Lisa published called The Future of Work is Human, Transforming Company Culture for a Post-Pandemic World. I mean, obviously, go into the show notes, you will find access to her book and information about their company. But I gotta tell you, we had such an enlightening conversation with Lisa. I mean, it went on for like an hour and a half, and it's like, okay, we're gonna break this up into three parts. I want you to sit back and just get ready for a series, I guess we could actually call this a series now, of our conversations with Lisa Walden, talking about the transformation that is necessary in the workplace, and how her work, along with her business partner Hannah, is so instrumental in helping organizations improve, and especially when you start to think about the different generations that are in the workplace right now. So, get ready, part one of three with Elisa Walden. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Well, Lisa Walden, it is so good to have you here on The Boss hole Chronicles. Welcome.
Lisa X. Walden:Thank you so much. Excited to be here.
John Broer:As our listeners know, um, my wonderful colleague, Hannah Best, is joining us today. And we were privileged enough to hear you speak at an event that our good friend Roy Getz hosted to talk about the different generations in the workplace. But your message was so profound and powerful. Hannah and I just sort of realized, oh my gosh, we got to get Lisa on the program because our listeners, our leaders out there need to hear this. And I just think it's great. So why don't we just kick it off with what you're seeing in the workplace as it relates to managers and supervisors? And as you know, we're trying to help them stay out of the bosshole zone. But what are the more profound things that you're seeing as it relates to our managers, supervisors, and leaders in the workplace these days?
Lisa X. Walden:Yeah. So first of all, I just have to say, and I'm sure you get this every time someone comes on this show, but bosshole is such a fantastic name for podcasts. Very right in line with my sensibilities and sense of humor. Um my business partner is also named Hannah. So Hannah Ubel, she's my um co-founder of Good Company Consulting, and our tagline is helping people create workplaces that don't suck. So I just had to throw that out there. Um but yeah, so in terms of what we're seeing in the workplace uh right now, um, there is uh something that we are calling, and we is me and my business partner Hannah, in case that's I'm not talking about the royal weed, just to throw that out there. But we're seeing a lot of um, we're seeing this this trend that we're calling the great chasm. And it's basically this disconnect between managers, leaders, supervisors, employees, and uh sorry, not employees, managers, leaders, and supervisors and their employees.
John Broer:Okay.
Lisa X. Walden:So there's a kind of a growing gap. It's been, you know, caused by a few different things. A major one, of course, being the um differing opinions between work from home virtual and its worth versus going back into the office.
John Broer:Okay.
Lisa X. Walden:So this has definitely triggered a lot of the tension that we're seeing. You know, leaders will say, um, you know, we've spent all this money building this amazing, you know, new office and nobody wants to show up anymore. And, you know, how do we be creative? How do we build community when we aren't seeing the whites of each other's eyes? Meanwhile, employees are saying, okay, but you know, I've had this taste of what it looks like to work from home, even if it's partially, it works so much better with my life. And, you know, it allows me to integrate work with my life in a way that is much more sustainable for me. So why are we all of a sudden, you know, pushing back to office without really understanding the why behind it? So lots of tension, lots of frustration. And I see both sides of the coin, to be honest. It is, I think it's partly my job to do that. So, you know, employees look at leaders and think you're just trying to, you know, rule with an iron fist, be a bosshole, I guess, and force us back to the office. And then, you know, leaders are saying, well, yes, well, no. And we're also trying to accomplish these things of getting people together, of building connection, of building community, of having a stronger culture. So I see both sides of the coin. Um, I do have an opinion, uh, but I do understand where where both people are coming from. And I do think, you know, one of the things, and we'll talk about this in this conversation, about leaders is I think sometimes can forget that they're humans too.
John Broer:Right.
Lisa X. Walden:Um so it's really important to honor that. They're humans with a huge job and a huge responsibility, and they're trying to do, in many cases, not all cases, the best by people. So um, it's a difficult, it's a difficult question. I see, like I said, both sides of the of the of the aisle.
John Broer:I love the imagery of the chasm. And you mentioned that during your remarks when um when we saw you speak. And I mean, if we were to look at the Gallup data over the last several years as a an an indicator that chasm is not narrowing. Like it continues to get wider and deeper. What um are are organizations just tone deaf? What what do you what do you what's the you know, I I look for causation, but what do you what do you think is happening here?
Lisa X. Walden:Yeah, that's such a good question. Um there's a lot of different factors at play, I would say. Uh there inevitably, you know, my my background being in generational sociology, I'm always looking at the generational dynamics at play.
John Broer:Right.
Lisa X. Walden:And uh we still have uh a good contingent of baby boomers uh in positions in those, you know, top top seats, CEO, CFO, um C-suites, and also older Gen Xers. And they they kind of experienced the workplace when it was a lot more traditionally, you know, top-down command-control style of leading. So that's the way they were taught. That's the way they grew up, you know, um they were thrown into the deep end. They were kind of, they had that um almost military style of leadership when they were uh when they entered the workplace. So they have sort of adopted it themselves. So the outdated style of leadership or leadership that isn't really resonating with the younger generation, I think is a big piece, is um, you know, not adapting to the the current workforce, but leading as if it was the same when you entered the workforce. So that's a big piece of it. As I said, I I think this shift to, you know, mandates to return to the office are part of that of, you know, we're your boss, so you return to the office because we said so.
John Broer:Right.
Lisa X. Walden:And that that's not a winning argument. Um when Hannah and I talk about doing this effectively, we always say, you know, you're not gonna get people to come back to the I mean, you will with with sticks versus carrots, right? So you had with sticks, but then what have you done to your culture? What have you done to your psychological safety? What have you done to your trust? Um you've you've really taken a huge blow at that. So we much prefer the the carrots of of talking them through the why, of offering incentives, of, you know, having a a reason to go into the office versus we told you so and we paid for the space and you know, fallacy of sunk costs. We want to we want to make sure that we're making the most out of our dollars that we spent here, but but at what other cost, right? What is the cost to retention and culture and community? So those those pieces are huge. I would also say that unfortunately we're sort of seeing a trend of a resurgence of that accountability first leadership right now. Which I think is a bit of a misnomer, but that's kind of what it's the proponents are calling it of, you know, results first, accountability first, kind of a more, I hesitate to say this, but let's say a more like masculine style of leader leading, which I don't necessarily prescribe to that uh framing, but that's kind of how I've heard it positioned.
John Broer:Okay.
Lisa X. Walden:And and this is what happens, right? We see a pendulum swing of we we swing to more compassionate coach style leadership, um, you know, self-esteem movement when millennials were growing up, and then and then there's a shift away from it. And it's a natural state of humans that once one thing takes over, then we have questions and there's always flaws and problems. So we start swinging to the other side. So unfortunately, I think unfortunately, we're swimming, swinging over to the more, I guess, kind of a bosshole style of leadership. Some people are claiming this is the way to do things.
John Broer:It kind of feels like that. And um, and I want to get Hannah in here with uh some of her questions and observations too. But if I may, I was on the cus between Boomer and Gen X, but probably more traditionally in the latter part of the Boomer group. And I was talking to a CEO who is older than I am, and this was post-pandemic, and I've shared the story on the program before. And he said, Hey, you know, we're thinking about requiring people to come back to the office. And he said, What do you think about that? And I said, now this is 20, late 21, 22. And I said, Well, you can do that, but you have to be prepared to lose people. And that that was, he was really surprised by that because he came up through the command and control, you are in your office, sort of the I I manage by observation rather than outcome. And he's a great, he's a great guy. He's actually a very innovative guy. But that framework was so hardwired into who he was, the idea of a hybrid workforce ongoing really became a challenge. And they have shifted. I mean, they have they have adjusted necessarily, but I think they're the exception to the rule. I think that there's a tone-deaf nature out here because the return to office mandates, whatever the reasoning, I just think you are totally overlooking what our emerging workforce really needs and what they desire. And, you know, the command and control manager would would go, I didn't ask you what you needed or what you desired. I need you to be here doing your work. So, uh, Hannah, having heard that, I mean, what are some of your thoughts or even uh additional questions for uh Lisa?
Hannah Best:Yeah, it's funny. I was actually just reading something the other day um about Gen Z in particular, but how they're kind of quietly moving into leadership roles and how what's wanted of a leader, the want to be a leader, how different that looks. And some of the things I was kind of reading, but also very much were affirming to what I believe in, what I want as well, are things like having real genuine feedback and connection, conversations with those who I'm working with, um, and leaders that are kind of making good on their promises. But one of the one of the biggest things that stood out in this article is that just in about a decade, um, and Lisa check me on this if this is correct, but just in a decade, um, about 80% of the workforce will be millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha even. And that's I think like 20, 2034, 35. Um, but there's there's a gap of how I want to be as a leader and how I want to my leader to show up to me. Um so I'm I'm so interested in how we bridge this gap and it fits so well here in our conversation.
Lisa X. Walden:That is the question. Uh that's something I my uh you know clients ask me all the time is how do we bridge the gap across these different styles of leadership? Because I don't think there is one right answer, right? There's not one specific solution to not being a boss hole. It's like this, this archetype, this person, this version of leadership. But I do think there's a lot of um core truths that you can then build your authentic leadership around. And that command-control style of leadership, I don't believe is resonating with the next generation of talent. And so, you know, it they there's there's a a pattern here in if you choose to lead by that, you know, style, uh, if you choose to force people to the office, you certainly can. It is a choice.
John Broer:Of course. Yeah.
Lisa X. Walden:And you will lose people a hundred percent. And so the organizations that are saying flat out, we can't do work from home anymore, we don't want to do work from home anymore, or you know, even more traditional industries that are like, we can't offer that and we can't offer flexibility because that's just now not how our industry is built, they're losing people.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah.
Lisa X. Walden:Like they are losing people. And there are industries. For example, I work a ton with healthcare and the hospital associations. And you would not believe the creative ways that they are envisioning of creating flexibility for a job that requires you to be in a space and place. Right. One of the things that I'm seeing, you know, this is just an example of you you can make it happen if you choose to, right? If you lean into it, if you look for the opportunity. So one of my clients, uh hospital, they're dealing with the silver tsunami, which is a huge issue in healthcare right now, where they are losing a ton of their seasoned staff, physicians, nurses, uh practitioners, you know, boomers are starting to retire uh more and more. I'm seeing very few of them in my rooms these days, actually, um, in the rooms I present to. So they're having this huge, you know, outflux of these very seasoned staff. And at the same time, they're having a huge influx of boomer patients. So they're really struggling with this transition. And they are also getting Gen Z and millennial hires that are looking for flexibility and looking for, you know, options to maybe not have to work on Saturdays and things like that. So one of the very creative solutions, and this is actually more in favor of the retiring uh boomers, is they are keeping uh tenured, like long, long seasoned tenured uh staff that's been, sorry, that staff that's been there for a long time, right? And so let's say a very seasoned nurse who's been at the hospital for 30 years obviously has incredible institutional knowledge, so much wisdom to share. And they will pair her with a young Gen Z hired nurse who is still in training, who still has a lot to learn. And she will, this nurse will be the mentor of this young nurse. And but she will mentor him from afar. So she will mentor him from home. So she actually gets to be from home, work from home, and still be able to mentor this new hire. And it's so brilliant. If you think about it, that's absolutely an incredible way to retain this demographic a little bit longer and offer flexibility to them. And so there's so much creativity around flexibility. There's so much creativity around how can we, you know, create a flexible environment that works for everyone. So for me, that flexibility term is not just around workplace and where we work, but around how we think about leadership as well. So that willingness and ability to flex is the key to being a great leader right now.
John Broer:Absolutely. And I would have some people push back on that and say, that seems to be like a lot of work. And it's like, well, it is work, but it also requires us to reinvent the way we think about the workplace and reinvent the way we think about the manager. We talk about that all the time. So that the framework or the image or the stereotype we have of a manager is very is what is required today is very different than what it was before. Because, you know, um Aaron Dignan, he's me, he was on the program a few years ago. He talks about the difference between command and control and trust and autonomy. And the trust and autonomy workforce is what's it's here. It's been here, and it requires a different kind of manager, supervisor, and leader, different mindset altogether. I I completely agree with that.
Hannah Best:What you just highlighted there is kind of one of the biggest takeaways that resonates for me from your book, The Future of Work as Human, is what the definition or what the role of a leader really is. And it isn't just managing people's output. You say it's enabling people's potential. And I know there's been times in my experience working with certain leaders, or even myself, whether being uh working with a coach, there's such a different feel when you're working with someone or for someone, when they don't just look at you for that output. They recognize they're first very self-aware and able to do this, but they they see your potential and they bring you um into places that are gonna help you succeed and help you produce the output, but first they're they're enabling you and it makes just the the biggest impact and it's such a different feel. That's that's the piece here. Now we're looking for these empathetic leaders who are looking for connection. Um, they're able to tap into you, into the superpowers that you do really well, but it makes such a difference.
Lisa X. Walden:I love that, Hannah, and I like the word that you used of it's such a different feel. And I think there's not enough focus placed on the experience of work and the impact that managers have on the experience of work. So I I am an evangelist of, you know, there are humanistic reasons to be a good leader. And it's not just transactional, and it's not just about the bottom line, it's about creating an environment where humans can succeed and they can have a great experience. They can have fun, they can, you know, reach potential that they didn't even see in themselves. And and I know not everyone thinks that way. I think whichever way you go about it, the transactional way or the humanistic way, the direction you go to achieve that bottom line result is the same. And that's putting humans first. Do I want everyone to want to embrace that humanistic reasoning? Yes, of course I do, but not everyone will, and that's okay. But I still think that the path there looks the same. And for me, that experience at work is a huge difference. Like if you have a leader who is a bit of a bosshole, you you might want to, you know, do your job and even excel, but but to get the paycheck at the end of the day.
John Broer:Right.
Lisa X. Walden:And there's a big difference between that and having a boss who you respect, who you admire, who you, you know, look up to, whose good opinion you you desire because you see that they're incredible human beings, that they are very good at what they do, and that they care about you. And and showing up at work, the the quality of the environment in that scenario versus the scenario where, you know, it's do this because I said so, is so different and so different for our wellness, for our mental health, for our overall lives. I don't know why you would want to do it any other way, because it's such, it's such a different difference. And I also think, I believe, that the quality of the work that you see in the leader who's more compassionate, who's more human-driven, um, is vastly different in what as well in a good way. You just get so much better results when you tap into human beings and inspire them versus direct them.
John Broer:What did I tell you? An amazing episode. And tune in next week because we will have part two of that discussion with Lisa Walden, and we will get even deeper into the idea of the dynamics in the workplace, what our managers and our supervisors need to understand about the way work is different today than it has been in the past. So tune in next week. We'll see you then.