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The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
TBC Flashback - Are You Ready to Become a New Manager? (April 2024)
Most promotions celebrate your past performance; leadership demands a different future. We’re pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to move from star individual contributor to effective first-time manager, with candid stories from Karen Schulman and sharp, field-tested tactics you can use today. If you’ve ever been “tapped on the shoulder” and told you’ll be great at managing because you’re great at your job, this conversation is your reality check—and your roadmap.
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A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bosshol Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Brower, hoping that this finds you on the other side of an absolutely amazing, restful, and gratitude-filled Thanksgiving holiday weekend. I know it was for our family, and I'm hoping you're starting out this week with a fresh perspective and ready to jump into some talent optimization and fossil transformation topics. This week we're actually going to release a Fossil Chronicles flashback. And the reason I wanted to do this, this is going to take us back to April of 2024, when I did an episode with our good friend and colleague Karen Shulman. And this was all about becoming a new manager. Now, why is this important now? I am planning in the next few months to release either a panel or a series of programs with subject matter experts around the topic of designing and building a more robust and effective individual contributor pathway for people to follow rather than forcing them to go into management. I've been speaking around the country a lot lately, and whenever I bring this up, people acknowledge the need for this. But there are very few organizations that have really effectively built out an individual contributor pathway and left the manager pathway for a more select group of people that actually want to get into management. In other words, we're not forcing somebody into the boxhold zone just because there is no alternative for them to stay an individual contributor. So I think this is a good way to revisit it. So let's jump in. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. As always, Karen, it is good to have you back on The Boss Hole Chronicles. Welcome.
Karen Shulman:Thank you very much. It's it's excellent to be back. I'm excited for our topic today.
John Broer:Oh, yeah. This is a good one. And actually, it's kind of surprising. We've been doing this for three and a half years, and we finally are having this conversation. And today's topic is are you ready to become a manager? We've been talking about for the last couple of years of reinventing the manager. Go back and listen to a lot of the Boss Hole Chronicles. You will hear a lot of topics, a lot of subject matter expert episodes, our roundtables about reinventing the manager. This year we are really kicking off the idea of reinventing the workplace. So I we really wanted to speak to those individual contributors out there that are thinking about getting into management, or maybe are being asked to get into management or being a supervisor and just making sure you're heading into it with your eyes open. Because I think Karen and you and I could probably share, this is where we'll start off. We we can share a little bit about our own management experiences. And I know what I did wrong, uh, and I'm happy to share that in a second. But Karen, tell us about your foray, if you will, into the world of being a manager.
Karen Shulman:Yeah, I I I was thrown into it as I was describing to John a little earlier today. Basically, I was made a supervisor in an area where I really was kind of somewhat new to it, um, but I might have been the most seasoned one uh on the team, and uh didn't really get any training at all and didn't really know how to manage people and had a couple of very tough people to manage. One who was constantly late, and another one who was just really did his work kind of halfway. And I didn't know how to handle those things. And I remember um somebody that I worked with in our IT department said, Well, you've had a ton of management training. You you have, and I said, I have. And she said, Yeah. She said, It's kind of like they took you and threw you into a body of water and said, Hey, sink or swim. There you go. And so needless to say, I am sure I was a boss hole, and I'm sure that I was a quite an ineffective manager that first time. It was not a good experience at all.
John Broer:Who could expect otherwise? Honestly, I mean, how many of us were not sort of thrown into it? And let's face it, on the one hand, it's it's flattering. I mean, people are looking at you saying, hey, I think you could be a good manager, I think you could be a good supervisor. But just being thrown into the deep end and not getting any kind of a training, that is, I mean, how how could that not be disastrous, at least in in some degree? So that was that was your first management experience, right? Okay, so there was there was another one, correct?
Karen Shulman:Yeah, there was. And that was it was kind of a bit of a role reversal because now I was managing people who were quite seasoned. I moved from finance into human resources. Okay. I had a very seasoned HR team that I was working with, and I knew that I didn't know very much in terms of managing uh the function that we were responsible for. So I had to do a I had to become uh instead of being like an individual contributor, um, I had to become more of a good listener. I had to become somebody that was much more collaborative. I had to tap into the expertise of the people that I managed. And as a result, I think we had a much better team function. Um we we did things much better. And I to be very honest with you, I felt much more comfortable in that type of a situation uh than I did the first time that I managed.
John Broer:Interesting. But but you knew, I mean, going into it, these people had more, they were more seasoned, perhaps had more expertise, but you did not I mean, there are some people that would see that as a threat. Um you saw you saw it as a real asset.
Karen Shulman:Absolutely.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:Yeah. And I and I had to. I had to rely on them. And I don't think I could have managed the function without working with them in the way that I did. And it was a totally different approach than what I had done in my first in my first stint as a manager. Interesting.
John Broer:Interesting. Because my my very first one, I was uh with a chemical company. I had been an individual contributor and living out, yeah, I opened a territory, opened a brand new territory, and the company was growing. And the president, and I really appreciated it. He came up, said, Hey, I'd like you to move back to the corporate office. I'd like you to run the sales program. And I got super excited. I mean, it was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. Management, all the cool things that come with it. Boy, was I naive. And I loved it. I loved the company. The people were great. But I will tell you that I did not understand how to step out of the individual contributor role and into the management role. So I went, I went to the corporate office kind of feeling like a glorified individual contributor. And I was supposed to help everybody else figure out how to do that. And I had no training whatsoever. None. So again, I think my experience could have been similar to yours in that thrown into the deep end, no training. And it was sort of like, yeah, go get them, kid. And I know I did some boss hole stuff. I absolutely did. You've heard this story before. I've shared it with our audience that I went out and I was seeking out new manager training. And I found it in an organization, had a great, had a couple of mentors actually guiding me. And that's when the revelation started coming around. When I started realizing how to avoid the pitfalls of becoming a new manager. And I think, Karen, between you and I, we can we can share some of those today. We can really, for those managers out there, let's let's just be really clear. We are not, we don't want to discourage anybody from thinking but from considering getting into management or being a supervisor. It is incredibly rewarding. I would say it's incredibly rewarding if you really have a desire to help people grow and help them develop. If you're getting into management because it's going to be a lot of notoriety and there's a lot of glory and a lot of money involved, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Would you agree with that?
Karen Shulman:Oh, absolutely. And I think what you said earlier about, you know, basically probably you were tapped on the shoulder to become a manager, as was I, because we were great individual contributors. Right. And so that's the way that people were promoted in the past. I'm hoping it's not still that way, but I'm not so certain.
John Broer:I'm pretty sure it is. Yeah.
Karen Shulman:Yeah. That if you're a really good individual contributor, we'll just put you on the management track and you will be as successful doing that. And it it just doesn't quite work that way. And you're you're exactly right. You have to go into management for the right reasons, or your chances of being successful uh are probably pretty small.
John Broer:Oh, for sure. For sure. And unfortunately, I think you're right. I think that trend of taking individual contributors, I mean, I know it because of the clients, the client, some of the clients with whom we're working, they said, Oh, yeah, that's exactly what we do. We see an individual contributor, we tap them on the shoulder, we put them into management. That rarely works out well if they don't get sufficient training. And quite frankly, let's let's just get back to the beginning of, or let's get back to say some very basics. Um, asking the question, so I'm going to ask a question to all of our uh prospective managers out there, or maybe you're new in management. Why are you moving into management? Okay, so that's a big question. Ask yourself the question, why am I moving into management? Was I asked to do this? And am I being asked to do this because I'm a one, a great individual contributor, or have I demonstrated or articulated that I really want to help coach and develop other people? I think I'm good at it. Maybe you've demonstrated it during group projects or something like that. But if you've been asked, think about the rationale behind being asked. It's a, it's a, it's a great compliment. And let's face it, we can get we can get pretty excited about being tapped on the shoulder, but is it for the right reasons? And so organizations, if they're doing it because you're a great individual contributor, you may want to tap the brakes a little bit and do a little bit of self-reflection and saying, Am I willing to step away from being an individual contributor and now devote myself to the development of other people? Because that's really what it needs to be. Uh another thing is, and I mentioned this, the money and the notoriety. I I had a I had a colleague of mine when I got, when the president of the company invited me to and asked me to come back to the corporate offices to manage uh the sales team, I had a very good, he was an outside consultant for the company, somebody I trusted, he was a mentor for sure, and he said, Why on earth would you want to go into management? He said, John, you've got this territory, it's all yours, you're growing it. He said, Why would you want to take on the headaches of seven other people? Because that's what it's going to be. And I I never thought about it that way. But I one, I I did want to do it. I was excited about it, but I also didn't know what I didn't know about managing people. But he actually made it very clear. He said, if you're getting into it because you think there's, you know, glory and money and notoriety and all this other stuff, it's not there. That that's you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Does that make sense?
Karen Shulman:Does. And I also think that that there's maybe it's an older belief that when you're a manager, you get to sit back and you just get let the other people that report to you do the work.
John Broer:Right.
Karen Shulman:And you get to direct them, you get to tell them what to do. And I don't think that that's what management is, certainly not in this day and age. Um and if that's why you're getting into it, because you would like the power of being able to do that, yeah. I I think that's also uh a mistake. Because I don't think that's correct.
John Broer:Add to that, if you are being now tapped to manage your former peers, that really complicates it. So you can't sit back. You now have to change those relationships. The nature of those relationships has to change because you are in more of a position of authority. You still want to develop and be an asset to them. Uh, but yeah, it it totally changes things. So one of the things I remember, um, interestingly enough, ironically enough, after I had done my stint in the chemical industry, I think it was about 11 years, I actually left there to start my own corporate training practice. I that was my first practice that I started. I actually got recruited by uh the organization that where I went to get my manager training, they actually brought me in as a member of the faculty to actually facilitate their management programs and help to build some of their programs. But one of the things that we talked about is avoiding the pitfalls of being when you're a new manager. And one of them is creating clones. I remember that vividly. Somebody said, do not try to create mini versions of you. And if you all go back to our actually, I'll put it in the show notes. Um, if you go back into, I think it was our second episode back in 2020, uh, making mini me's. And it was all about a manager that said, you know, that really wanted to make them small, you know, versions of her. That don't create clones. They your direct reports have something uniquely individual to contribute. You need to tap into that and do not make them smaller or different versions of who you are. Uh, and that's where the data we have available, like PI data and other tools, help you understand that. Don't try to create clones. And the second one that really came out is you need to be a resource for them and not a liability. Boss holes are liabilities. Non-boss holes have figured out a way to be a real asset uh and to support and help grow their direct reports and their team members. But those are two things that stood out for me. Another thing that I would encourage you to do is that if you've been tapped to go into management, don't do it without some training. Now, hopefully your company is willing to reimburse you for any kind of training. Go out and look for some training for new managers or prospective managers. I'll tell you what, you know what is a great archive, a great resource is the Bosshole Chronicles. I will, I will flat out say, we have had people say, this podcast has been instrumental in helping me be a better manager, which we love to hear. But you got three and a half years worth of content to help you avoid the bosshole zone. So get some training and ask your company to invest in you to become a manager. And then this one I think is really, really critical, and that is relinquishing your individual contributor tasks. A lot of times you are put into management and you don't go give up your client list or your individual contributor tasks, and that's a huge mistake. So this is where you can learn one of the most crucial disciplines of a good manager, and that is delegation. And it doesn't mean just dumping your crap on other people. It means who are the people on my team to whom I could delegate these individual contributor tasks so you can be all about growing and developing other people. So I just I just really want to encourage you to think differently about this role. So with that, with that, let's talk a little bit about some new disciplines, Karen, about the the manager today needs to be very different than the manager of five, 10, 20, 30 years ago. We are talking about a different type of individual to manage, and that takes different disciplines. So from your perspective, what are some of the disciplines that they need to embrace in this amazing role as a developer of other people as a manager?
Karen Shulman:I like the the terminology talent scout because I think when you're a manager, you have to be able to assess uh the strengths of the people that work for you. And you have to be able to kind of envision how do I how do I help them become stronger performers? What type of work do they need to, what type of projects do they need? What type type of tasks do they need to get even stronger or broader in their in their skill set? And it's almost like being a talent scout to really, to really like tap into where they are today and seeing where you need them to be down the road, not just for your department, but for the for the whole organization. Where else might they be able to fit in the organization? And can you help bring them the projects, the tasks, the experiences, the exposure that they need to to become a more talented performer in your organization? That's one of the things that I think that's one of the disciplines that is it's a new way of looking at management is that whole concept of being a developer of people.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:And I like the word talent scout. It just it speaks to me.
John Broer:I love that. I love that term. So, in other words, um, from day one, you are really sort of constantly assessing, evaluating how are people doing? How do I help uh them grow and develop to be better? And the other side of that is recognizing when we might have the wrong person in the wrong role. And doesn't not don't blame them for it. I mean, this happens a lot. We we put people in roles for because we we kind of think that they're gonna be good at it, or it's sort of a gut feel, and then they struggle, and then we blame them for struggling. This is why we don't do anything without objective data, anything at all. But it's also recognizing that we might have somebody in a wrong role. And I like what you said is how do we leverage their capabilities perhaps in a role that might be in another place in the organization? And and therefore we we optimize who they are and what they do. Okay. Okay. Good, good. What else?
Karen Shulman:Well, what I'm thinking of is probably the same thing that you're thinking of, the whole concept of uh of being a coach and a mentor. And I know you wanna you want to talk about that, so I'll turn it back to you.
John Broer:Oh, I think that that is when we re-in when we think about reinventing the role of the manager uh and what a manager is. I think a manager is a coach today. Uh actually, historically, all great managers forever were actually more coaches and mentors than they were command and control authoritarian taskmasters. You know, the old command and control methodology that is dying, uh, we can we can't completely abandon command and control, which is you know the whole stoplight intersection. But the the idea of trust and autonomy and how it is part of the repertoire of a good coach and mentor, trust and autonomy in their people, I think that get gets back to what you're talking about. If I'm a good talent scout and I know I have optimized job fit and team fit, and I have the right people in the right roles, then I can afford to extend trust and autonomy because they're going to do their jobs, and I can focus on how do I help them do their jobs more effectively as a coach. That's why I go back to the idea of if you are also an individual contributor, if you still are doing your individual, individual contributor stuff and adding on to that or being asked to add on to that management responsibilities, those are two totally different worlds. It cannot be done effectively. That's why, you know, don't let the mistake be made that you are still maintaining individual contributor types of responsibilities. Dedicate yourself to being that talent scout and developing and coaching your folks. By the way, I just want to point out this will also be in the show notes. A few months ago, Karen and I did an episode called Bosshole or Tormentor. Because the word mentor is in the word tormentor. Uh, I'm gonna put that in there too, because that's that's a really helpful message for people that are new into management or thinking about it. You never want to be a bosshole or a tormentor. Coach and mentor is the direction you want to go.
Karen Shulman:I think one of the keys that I learned in management, and and it was later in my career, that it's so important when you have people coming into the workplace these days, you know, they they bring their whole person. They are bringing not just their their talents and their skills and their ability to work and to have relationships with people at work and get the work done. They also are bringing whatever's going on uh in their lives probably outside of work as well. Absolutely. And so you as a manager, you are managing truly the whole person. And that is that is different. When I started managing whatever's going on in people's personal lives, very seldom did you know what that was. They kind of kept it to themselves.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:And you basically dealt with the person that was the the work person. I think it's very different these days. And and one of the things that I learned late in later in my career is that it is very important, even though you don't necessarily, you know, too much information. I don't know, I don't want to know what's going on in people's personal lives. Right. I I think you have to. Because one of the keys, I think, to being an effective manager these days is to let people know that you care about them as human beings. If people know that you, as their manager, care about them as a human being, it makes all the difference in the world. It makes your job as a manager much, much, much easier.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:And so that that does mean, yeah, you're gonna have to hear some of the things that are going on in their personal lives, and you might maybe just listening is all you need to do. Uh, you don't don't necessarily have to give advice or know how to handle certain things. Sometimes people just need an ear, somebody to talk to. I know from the best managers that I've worked for, and and they're a few, but the ones that that I really would have run through brick walls for were the ones that I knew cared about me as a human being and would have would have my back no matter what. Yeah. And I think that that that is so important to be a a good manager in any organization.
John Broer:I I love that, Karen. The whole per you have to know that the whole person is showing up. So this again goes back to the old model that is, you know, should be dead and gone of hey, that personal stuff you keep at the door. You, you know, you walk in here, the personal stuff stays outside. That's that's just an antiquated, you can you can't do that. That then in other words, we're I'm gonna borrow this from uh somebody that's coming up on the podcast in the next several weeks. Um, Comedy Wood is her name, and she talks about we want to focus on human beings, not human doings. I I love that. And you are talking about that. Yes, these are human beings. Oh, I that's that is that is absolutely so true. And with that, the idea of human beings and the whole person being there is the the nature of feedback and how critical it is that you have a regular cadence. It doesn't have to be heavily structured or formal, but that interaction with your direct reports. And um, Jason Lauritz, and we've talked about Jason so many times, had a great episode on the Boss Hole Chronicles about the check-in method. And he has a very simple but extraordinarily practical way of helping managers have those informal conversations just to touch base, just to touch base to let them know to your point, Karen, I'm here, I've got your back, I want to see how you're doing, I want to know if there's anything I can do to make your world is easier, because that's really what a manager needs to do. All too often managers get into it their role thinking I have to give feedback, and you do sometimes, but I think what you are, and you just said it, you need to listen, you don't need to solve, and at the same time, you want to be getting feedback from them. You know, what are the things that I'm doing that are helping you the most? What are the things that I'm doing that could be hindering you that I need to change? Which means getting your ego out of the way, doesn't it?
Karen Shulman:Oh, for sure.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:Yeah, it it it serves no purpose and it really does get in the way.
John Broer:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would be remiss, Karen, if we and I love, I just love this. There's so many, there's so many facets facets to this. And and once again, I want to let you know that we are we're all in favor of people that want to get into management and be a supervisor because you want to develop people, you have a real heart and a real passion for it, and you have a skill set for it. But none of this, none of this is easy to do if you are trying to do it without data. Okay. Everybody knows, I mean, at real good ventures, we everything we do and how we equip our clients is based on objective data. Because if you are doing this work as a manager or supervisor and you are just doing it from a gut feel or you are guessing about it, you will fail. I'm gonna say it right there. You will fail. You will not be the kind of manager that you could be if you were armed with objective data. By the way, objective data about yourself as well as the people in around you in your sphere. And go in the show notes because in our show notes, we always make uh it available to take the ref uh take our behavioral assessment and find out what your reference profile is, what your leadership DNA is. Go do that and understand you know, your superpowers, but also that kryptonite, the things you're bringing to a relationship that can either build it up or actually, you know, diminish it. But objective data, I cannot, I cannot stress enough how that needs to be the new way of work and how we reinvent the workplace and reinvent the manager.
Karen Shulman:Well, that gets us out of the the mini me, uh, you know, creating a team of just mini me's.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:Because what is what is the easiest thing for you to do as a manager? Just manage people the way you like to be managed. That doesn't work for everybody. If you got people that are wired just like you, great, it's probably going to be fabulous. But your chances of having a whole team like that are probably between Slim and None.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:And so I I often say now, if I had had the analytical data, the people data, when I was a manager, I would have been a I would have been a much more effective manager in even in that first stint where I didn't have a lot of training, I would have been better at it because it would have at least given me some ideas on what I needed to do differently to to match the needs of the people that reported to me.
John Broer:Right.
Karen Shulman:Uh, but I didn't I didn't have that. It would have made my life a lot easier. So I I totally agree with you. I think that, especially for new managers, to have uh to have the data.
John Broer:Yeah. Oh, for sure. There are so many ways to step into a management role and be more effective. I had, I mean, I was blessed with some great mentors. Um, I also had some boss holes. I mean, I I made boss hole mistakes. I worked for some boss holes who helped me understand what I didn't want to do. But there are so many resources available to you that if you are being looked at to be a manager in your organization, if they are coming to you and tapping you on the shoulder and saying, hey, we want you to, we want you to supervise this group, congratulations. I mean, I'm we're excited for you. We understand how wonderful this role can be. And we also know how frustrating and challenging it can be, especially if you don't have the resources. So, you know, Karen, I think about one, having the right perspective. What have we talked about today? Having the right perspective and understanding what the role of the manager is, and that is a developer of other people. You're not a glorified individual contributor. If that's what they want, I think you need to re-re consider accepting the position. Don't do this without training, um, coaching of some sort. Find a mentor of your own, a good mentor. Obviously, you've got this podcast. If you're listening to this right now, you have have a treasure trove of material and content to help you do this a lot better. And at the same time, when you take more of an outward perspective, and I that's what I get from from your comments, that these are human beings. The whole person shows up. Your ego has to die. I mean, it really does because this isn't about you. You are you're no longer in the spotlight. You are the you're the guide, you're not the hero anymore. And that's very powerful. So we don't want to discourage you. We we want to encourage you, but also do so in a responsible way so that this new role can be very fulfilling. And by the way, hopefully you work for an organization that you give, you jump into the supervisory or management role and you try it. And let's just say it's not for you. There is no shame in going back to being an individual contributor. Wouldn't you agree with that? I mean, there's no shame whatsoever.
Karen Shulman:For sure. Absolutely.
John Broer:Yep. And maybe that's the expectation. Maybe that's the caveat. It's like, listen, I I I want to do this. I would love to do this. I just want to make sure that if for some reason my capabilities fall short of what I need to do for this team, that I have the opportunity to go back into my previous role. There should never be any shame to stepping back into an individual contributor role. That's the kind of culture I want to work in. One that has that degree of flexibility. And unfortunately, we've seen a lot of cultures where if you don't make it, man, it's like a walk of shame and you're gone. Yeah, you're gone. And that's that doesn't help anybody ever, ever.
Karen Shulman:The one thing that I want to say, I guess when I look back on the positions that I had where I was a manager, I think the most in in you touched on it, the most gratifying thing was to see people expand their skill set and take on new roles that frankly, when I started, I didn't even see that that would be a possibility necessarily. To watch them blossom and to watch them take on bigger responsibility and move up the ladder, if you will, in the organization.
John Broer:Yeah.
Karen Shulman:I I don't know that there's in management, to me, that's the epitome. That's the that's the that's the icing on the cake, for sure. And that to that that made it all worthwhile.
John Broer:Yeah. For me. Oh, absolutely. That that's your success was through somebody else's success. And that's the definition right there. Oh my gosh. Well, Karen, thank you for that. Or thank you for this. Just again, I I always find our conversation so enlightening and helpful. And your experience, I know, is is incredibly helpful for the Boss Hole Transformation Nation. I want to remind everybody out there, go into the show notes. We are going to put a number of previous episodes that speak directly to this, and we'll provide you with those milestones, that those guideposts to making an informed and good decision about getting into management for the right reasons. And just remember, uh, the bosshole chronicles will be here as a way to always encourage people to stay out of the bosshole zone. And let me just also, as a side note, I've done this before, those of you that are working for non-bossholes that are working for amazing managers, please let them know you feel that way. Please let them know how much you appreciate the fact that they're not a boss hole and that they are doing so many things right to elevate you and help you be a good individual. Because that's important. We need to do that. Well, Karen, thanks. This was great. I really appreciate it.
Karen Shulman:Thank you, John. It was fun as always. Look forward to the next time.
John Broer:You got it. All right, everybody. Thanks, and we'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Boss Hole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.