Kristen Schmitt - Thrive to Lead

Bad leaders don’t always look like villains. Sometimes they look like someone who means well, loves competition, and tracks a number on a dashboard that quietly trains the team to waste time. That’s where this conversation begins: Kristen Schmitt, founder of Thrive to Lead, shares how a “Bosshole” manager pushed metrics that rewarded optics over outcomes and how those choices created predictable, costly unintended consequences.

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Transcript

John Broer 0:03

A warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Breuer. Welcome to another installment of The Bosshole Chronicles, and today I'm being joined by a new friend. This is somebody I met through a small networking group here in Columbus, Ohio, and her name is Kristen Schmitt. And Kristen is the founder of Thrive to Lead. It is a leadership team and executive coaching firm. She's been doing this work for almost a decade, and I love the description that she has on her profile that says she is a fiercely dedicated executive coach, and interestingly enough, really specializes in working with women at that director and above position or that are moving into that position and hoping to show up in an authentic and genuine way in a leadership role. I think you'll love to hear about Kristen and how she got into this work. And actually, it came from an experience with a boss hole. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to Kristen Schmitt. Enjoy today's episode. Kristen, it is so good to have you on the Boss Hole Chronicles. Welcome.

Kristen Schmitt 1:38

Thank you so much for having me, John.

John Broer 1:40

I just want to let our listeners know that you and I met through other parties. I mean, I love just the really great network that I'm experiencing here in Columbus, Ohio. I mean, I've only been here three and a half years. You've been here much longer. And I've been honored to be connected with so many people that know you. And I think something happened. We just decided to grab a coffee one day, and it was a great conversation. And what really resulted from that is you've got a great bosshole story that actually has led to your current career, which I love. So I'm gonna sit back and give you a chance to tell the bosshole transformation nation about this particular bosshole incident.

Kristen Schmitt 2:20

So, so my my career path is a little bit different in that I fast tracked and I had was moved to the VP level at the age of 30. Um, I was a 30-year-old woman kind of sitting around the table with a bunch of 50-year-old men, which was um in you know, interesting in and of itself. And we could have a whole conversation about imposter syndrome and and all of that, that good stuff. But at any rate, um, while in that role, I saw a lot of success. And we often interviewed one another's my peers and I would interview one another's candidates. And so I was interviewing this gentleman to actually move into a position that would be a peer move of mine. Fast forward several years, and I was I had taken a step back and for family reasons and ended up in a position where I was reporting into him.

John Broer 3:13

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 3:14

So that so that was kind of interesting. But what was super interesting is he sort of developed selective memory, was kind of had forgotten that you know we had met in a previous life and and what my past role had been. And it was as though I was sort of rookie brand new manager.

John Broer 3:32

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 3:33

And I was he he treated me as such. And so there were there were multiple different things, but one thing that really stuck out was that he would create these friendly little competitions between his director ports, okay, um, which were a competition can be a good thing, but you know, without looking at like what the unintended consequences of these things would be, and of which there were many. Okay. So in in one of these cases, um, we were recruiting sales leaders, salespeople, and we were using LinkedIn without any of the navigator or the fancy tools. And in order to measure what we were doing with that, he would each week look to see how many LinkedIn profile reviews or pro profile views we had. Because his thought was, well, if we're recruiting on LinkedIn and reaching out to people, they're looking at our profiles, and therefore that must be the thing to measure.

John Broer 4:26

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 4:27

So I really kind of get a B in my bonnet about if people remember what that means, but about you know, doing things that aren't going to drive behaviors that really make a difference or make things happen.

John Broer 4:39

Right.

Kristen Schmitt 4:40

I said, you know, this really isn't the way that you should do this. And what I would tell you is that every Tuesday and Thursday night, I go to my son's baseball games and I sit there and I just click on people's profiles. Right. So that I can get my numbers up. Um, because that's the thing that's being measured.

John Broer 5:00

Right. Right.

Kristen Schmitt 5:01

So there was another example, John, that thought came up for me as we were talking. And that was we um in this industry, we would have a strategy meeting in typically March of every year um with our business cycles. And it was a great opportunity for people to, I mean, come up for air and reflect and look at the whole big picture in addition to the strategy. So it was kind of a breath of fresh air, if you will. And I was told by my boss, we need to have this meeting on a Saturday because if we have it on a Saturday instead of a Friday, we're gonna lose 10 sales calls per person. And and I kind of I said, you know what, let me explain to you why this is a really, really bad idea.

John Broer 5:47

Yeah.

Kristen Schmitt 5:48

Because when you do that, not only so then all of these people are going to they're gonna come to the meeting on Saturday, but then they're going to take Monday off because they're tired and they're gonna be angry with you.

John Broer 6:01

Yeah, that's right.

Kristen Schmitt 6:03

And so you talk about unintended consequences, you it's a double, it's a double whammy. So you're losing the same number of sales calls, but you also have everyone upset.

John Broer 6:12

Uh you know, you know the irony of the all this, Kristen? You were coaching him. You were you didn't even realize that you were gonna get into this profession of coaching and you were already coaching him, and he couldn't pick up the thread. That's incredible. Go ahead.

Kristen Schmitt 6:28

Well, it was I, you know, it was I don't want to have I he didn't want to have the conversation the next level up.

John Broer 6:33

Right, right. Um by the way, but Of course, no, no, no, Kristen, we're not gonna have you do that. Well, so I'm gonna, I just okay, so I want to go back to something you said. So people could come up for people could come up for air, which which would suggest that I mean they're working, they're driving. Hey, we're gonna come together. I mean, those are opportunities to build community. And because I don't know, was it a fairly dispersed um Yeah, absolutely?

Kristen Schmitt 7:04

Okay, because I can come together with my peers, we can share what's working, what's not, and we can laugh.

John Broer 7:10

Yes, yes, which apparently he couldn't do. So we're gonna do this on Saturday. Uh I'm telling you, Kristen, they are still out there. This is this is the fact that he could not see the downside, even with your counsel and input, is really astonishing. I know, I know there are people listening right now, managers out there that are getting angry with me because this is exposing their approach. And uh, this is why we do this program is to help managers stay away from the bosshole zone. Go ahead. What were you gonna say?

Kristen Schmitt 7:44

Well, and I was gonna say, you know, to the um potential boss hole that doesn't want to be one.

John Broer 7:49

Right.

Kristen Schmitt 7:50

A a non-bosshole hole leader of mine said, because I was early on a very much a rule follower.

John Broer 7:56

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 7:57

He said, You can't let keeping your job get in the way of doing your job.

John Broer 8:02

Oh, I like that. Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 8:04

And so, you know, if it's fear that you'll be chastised or reprimanded for doing something when you know it's the right thing, right? That should cause you to pause.

John Broer 8:17

Yep. That's good. That's great advice. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, thanks, thanks for that story. Uh it just keeps getting better. Now I understand. That's now I understand why you left.

Kristen Schmitt 8:26

Over time, sort of many of those things led me to a place where I didn't like the way that I was behaving. I, you know, under this sort of um in within this culture. So I hired a coach at that point.

John Broer 8:40

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 8:48

Which the beauty of that was was ultimately the this led me to say, wow, this has made such a transformative impact on me. This is what I want to do for all this.

John Broer 8:59

Oh, neat. That's a really cool story. That's a really cool story. To your current career path, right? You've been doing this. I mean, officially, it's a little over 10 years now. Is this that?

Kristen Schmitt 9:09

It'll be it'll be a decade in January, yes.

John Broer 9:11

Oh, that's a wonderful milestone. And and just a reminder to our listeners, go into the show notes. You will see a link to Kristen and her business. And so, Kristen, I I shared it in the intro, but just again, provide our listeners, you have a niche that you service relative to your coaching. Share that with our listeners, if you would, please.

Kristen Schmitt 9:31

Yes. So there are there are really um two. The the biggest one is I work with individuals, individual leaders, um, like at the director-ish level. So a lot of women who are they're seeing a lot of success, but it feels performative.

John Broer 9:50

Okay.

Kristen Schmitt 9:51

So there, I I'm doing X, Y, and Z because I'm supposed to be doing it. Or I'm sitting in the meeting and I I need to speak up enough, but not speak out too much because I'm afraid of how I'm going to be perceived. With really, when really you need to be able to rip off the band-aid and say, okay, these are the people that I'm leading. This is what they need from me as professionals and as humans in order to be successful. And my job is to provide that. And and if you really dig down, that's not performative. You're you're really looking, okay, I'm a human trying to help a human be the best performer they can be. Right. What do we need to do that? And that's the question, you you, you know, you figure it out.

John Broer 10:41

Yeah, and you got to brush away all the pretense, all the crap, all of the, you know, the well, I, you know, there's all the legacy stuff that still carries over. I mean, we're still experiencing a lot of that in the workplace. You talk about being the sole female sitting around a bunch of men that are 20 years your senior. I I mean, I don't want to reinforce a cultural norm that seems to be more of a story than anything else, but let's face it, there's still uh carryover from some of this more antiquated way of looking at business, looking at people in business. Does that make sense?

Kristen Schmitt 11:14

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And you you have to figure out how to how to navigate in and out.

Quitting The Culture And Hiring A Coach

John Broer 11:20

Yes. That's true. And that's what you do. So again, I think that is, I mean, I think that is wonderful. And I I think because you have, for you, it sounds, Kristen, like this is very much a heartfelt approach. Um, you experience this, you have firsthand knowledge of it, and you want to put yourself in a position to help other women in the business place uh or in the workplace understand how to navigate that, which is which is super cool.

Kristen Schmitt 11:46

Yeah. I mean, I I like to think of it as um the magic happens at the intersection of top performance and humanity.

John Broer 11:56

Yeah.

Kristen Schmitt 11:57

And to to drive and to be human are not mutually exclusive.

John Broer 12:03

That's that's true. That is true. Well, and and our listeners know that in our world, and and I've shared this with you in behavioral and cognitive data. I mean, the data that we use with our clients and in our leadership development work, everybody is wired uniquely. And when you can tap into that, it allows you to leverage those superpowers and those strengths in an appropriate way and not let those, you know, any any particular trait overemphasized can become a liability. Absolutely. And and our job is to regulate that and have, you know, well, we also talk about the emotional intelligence enough to be able to manage that within the workplace. But okay, so we'll we'll get we'll get back to this in just one second. I want to go back to this boss hole. So so he he okay, did he actually really forget that yeah, I mean, like who you were and your level of expertise or your experience before you came back into the organization, or was that a little bit of a power move, authoritative thing?

Kristen Schmitt 13:03

It probably was. I mean, I I'm speculating, but it was probably an authoritative power move.

Coaching Leaders To Drop The Mask

John Broer 13:10

Okay, because it's like either you're super dense or you know, you just want to hold that authoritative level over Kristen because she had your job or she was doing this work before. Okay, fair enough. Because to me, we just released um not too long ago an episode called The Heart of a Leader. And in our world, we talk about humanity. Um, we want our clients to look at all the people in their organization through what we call the whole person model. And that's head, heart, and briefcase. Briefcase is the resume, the head, that's the behavioral cognitive stuff we measure with our tools. But the heart, that's a person's passion and their interests and their core values. And if you don't have a passion for developing other people, if you don't really want to do that, that's a heart issue. And to me, that's that speaks of a person who is maybe big on the outside, but very small on the inside, not willing to acknowledge, wow, Kristen's coming back. What a tremendous asset. And with all of her experience, and he and he wasted that. It sounds like I'm I'm making up stories right now. I realize that, but it sounds like that's what he did.

Kristen Schmitt 14:18

And and I, you know, it's it's interesting because you really we talk a lot about trusting the people that we are, you know, that we are working with or you know, who here we're responsible for. But it it goes the other way too. And there's a there's a there was an equation uh that I love the it's it's certainly not mine. David Maester, Charles Green, and Robert Galford, I think it is, in this book that they wrote, but it's this trust equation, and it it says trust, and your your listeners can look this up, but trust is equal to credibility, so you know your stuff, okay, plus reliability, meaning you do what you say you're going to do, plus they use the word intimacy, but so that's sort of all the people stuff, right? It divided by your emphasis on yourself. So if you're in it for you, that immediately detracts from the other three.

John Broer 15:16

Absolutely. Well, that's the egocentonic versus the allocentonic, whatever the you know, outward care. I that totally makes sense. You know what that makes me think of? It makes me think of um Charles Feltman's book, The Thin Book of Trust, the four different types of trust. And so I think what you're saying is that trust is not just this sort of it's not just one thing. It it is made up of different things, which is what I think your formula is emphasizing. And if if you if those components aren't there, uh it's going to be compromised for sure.

Kristen Schmitt 15:48

Yes, yes, if any one of them are lacking.

John Broer 15:51

But I've got it, I'm gonna give you credit because uh it's not lost on me that you were completely transparent and saying, look, you know, this is a metric, and you're checking our LinkedIn, you know, connections. I'm sitting at my son's baseball game just doing this uh just to make my numbers. There are a lot of people that would not be that transparent and honest about that. That so I I give you credit for that. Whoa, there's a reaction to that.

Kristen Schmitt 16:20

I uh it was, you know, it was very much kind of pushed to the side. I mean, that oh, okay. But I but I but you raise a really important point in that leadership is not leading just down. I mean, it's you if you're truly a leader, you want to make every person around you the best they can be.

John Broer 16:38

Yes.

Kristen Schmitt 16:39

So my intent was not to say you're a boss hole. My intent was to say, you know, this the the behaviors that you're driving in your people are going to be counterproductive.

Trust, Psychological Safety, And Better Leadership

John Broer 16:52

Yes. Yes. Well what yeah. So essentially what the the metrics you're establishing are creating these unintended consequences or behavior that's not gonna get you where you think it's gonna go. But in your and you were trying to help him. That's the part that I think is so honorable, is you were trying to help him provide some guidance. I think part of that was probably stemming from the fact that, gosh, you used to be in that position and you understand how you could provide some guidance, and he kind of ignored it. Um, so I'm gonna tell a quick story, and our our listeners have heard part of this. Years ago, I worked for a manager, super nice guy. This guy, he was the he was the sort of person that you would love to have as a neighbor because if you were working on, you know, some project on your house or building a deck, he would come over, he would help you, he would bring a cooler of beer or soda, whatever. Horrible manager. And I was in the world of business development and sales, and he established this metric of you have to have on average five sales calls a day. I I don't know where he got it. It was something antiquated from days and days ago, you know, we're pulling, we're pulling all this legacy crap forward. I never hit that. I had two to three, on average, two to three calls per day, and I had sales that were far exceeding anybody else in the organization. And I didn't try to, uh there was a point in time where I was trying to, I was fabricating. I mean, I would just sort of make a call, dial, nobody answered, but it was a call. And I'm thinking, to your point, this is stupid. This is absolutely silly. And he would get so upset. He he would be more upset about me not having an average of five calls a day than being pleased that I had these you know much higher numbers than anybody else, and didn't ask the question, wow, what is a better way to do this? And it's the same thing that you experience the unintended consequences of a really bad metric.

Kristen Schmitt 18:40

Because I mean, metrics are super important, don't get me wrong. Sure. Oh, yeah. They're only important. I mean, it's the conversation that you have with the metrics.

John Broer 18:49

Right.

Kristen Schmitt 18:50

It's not it's not the metric, you know. If if someone is falling short on something, well, then we need to talk about why and how we help you get to where you need to be.

John Broer 19:00

Right.

Kristen Schmitt 19:00

We don't just say, you know, I'm gonna slap your hand because you didn't make five calls yesterday.

John Broer 19:05

Yeah. You you know, that makes me think of in our world, Kristen, we talk about where managers and supervisors should be measured, are three key things. Uh, everybody thinks it's just performance of themselves or the team. And it's not. It's there's three things it's engagement, retention, and performance. Because you could have amazing performance, but have all kinds of turnover on your team, and it's just wiping away the profits that you're making. And if they're disengaged, you're not going to optimize that performance. And though those three things are very measurable, but they're more, um, I think they're more substantive that that uh for some reason some organizations just think, well, all we got to do is really look at performance. But I think if you only look at performance, you are excusing a lot of really bad behavior or practices from managers and their and their teams, just like you talked about.

Kristen Schmitt 19:57

Yes. Yeah. And I think um to that point, I mean, particularly in sales, performance is a lagging indicator. Yes. So it it's, you know, people often they tend to say, okay, the numbers look great, so everything must be great. Well, if you're not retaining your talent and they're not engaged, eventually that's going to hit the number.

Another Boss Story And The ChatGPT Fix

John Broer 20:20

Okay. So thank you to the boss hole you experienced because what it did is it led you to get a coach, which inspired you to start your own practice. And this is the work you're doing now. Uh, before we hit record, you had shared, and like I said, go into the show notes, get Kristen's information. And if you are somebody that would love to talk to her about her capabilities as a coach, please reach out to her. But you said before we hit record that you were talking to another coach who had a boss hole story recently that was a little bit of an echo of yours. Can you share a little bit of that with us?

Kristen Schmitt 20:56

Absolutely. So, so this um this coach is working with a professional. He's sort of later in his career. Um home stretch, but you know, not taking foot off the gas at all.

John Broer 21:08

Sure.

Kristen Schmitt 21:09

And new manager came in, and I'm I'm sure the intent of this new manager was actually to engage. So it's it was a okay, every Monday morning, we're going to, I'd like you to share what you're most proud of from last week and what what your goals are for this week and what you're going to do to achieve those. Okay, so fine. So this, but this person's role is very um it's very repetitive. So the thing is very same. So so this person's answers tend to be very similar. And so the manager said to this person, you know, I really would like to see some more variety in your answers, and also I'd like you to be a little bit more elaborate. And so Rather than looking at, okay, why why am I doing this? Right and is that being accomplished, it was, you know, let's put this in a nice little bow so that it looks good.

John Broer 22:11

Yeah.

Kristen Schmitt 22:12

So yeah, they're they're all over the place.

John Broer 22:15

So okay. I'm gonna be completely transparent. I know what I thought of. If if I got that request, because I'm I'm kind of in that same part of my career. I mean, I I am I love the work we do, totally fulfilled with our work, but I'm at the latter part of my career. If I had somebody say that, I would just take that and plug it into Grok or Chat GPT and say, give me something a little hardier, a little meatier because this manager wants it, which is exactly what you're talking about. That is not that is not the outcome that they had intended. Right. So so is is this still a lingering story? I mean, he has he resolved it, has he figured out what he's gonna do or what?

Kristen Schmitt 22:59

Um, I honestly don't know the answer to that. But I would I would get it's at some point it will um backfire in some way.

Practical Advice For Managers And Closing

John Broer 23:08

Of course, of course it will. Of course. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Well, I I appreciate that. And yeah, I know I'm not the only one who's thinking, oh, I I'd figure out a way to make it a little heftier and not put any any more work in. Wow. So the takeaway, Kristen, as a coach, let's say you have an opportunity and you do right now to speak to a lot of managers and supervisors that are out there listening and going, wow, am I doing that? I mean, am I am I guilty of that? What advice could you give them right now to say, okay, if you really want to show up and help your people uh with the right approach, what advice would you give them?

Kristen Schmitt 23:49

I think the biggest thing is having a regular dialogue with your people on how are we doing? How is how you know, as your manager, are you getting what you need? What else do you need from me? And and, you know, a lot of a lot of times, I mean, if my manager says that to me out of the blue, it's kind of like, uh-huh. Okay, what's the real motive here? But if you continue to ask that over time and and you're creating an environment where you're giving one another feedback, that's how you get there. Right. So I mean, I you know, I made some d dumb mistakes, I'll say dumb mistakes early on. You're not gonna hit every time, but but it's important that you learn from it and and also be able to say, you know what? When I sent you guys that message, I really whiffed.

John Broer 24:43

Yeah.

Kristen Schmitt 24:44

Um, so here, here was my, you know, here was my intent or my objective. I don't think I came across in the right way. So let's um let's talk about that.

John Broer 24:54

So some humility, some humility and the fact that, you know, I I am I am perfectly capable of making mistakes and I need to own them. I love that. I mean, I think that that's that's a humanity, that's an element of humanity that managers and supervisors need to show.

Kristen Schmitt 25:09

And in the humility and, you know, whether you want to say charisma, whether you want to say it's presence, whatever, again, those are not mutually exclusive.

John Broer 25:18

Agreed. You make me think of a a lot, well, you you use the word trust, and I and I think that that is something for anybody that's ever read or practiced any of the work by Patrick Lincioni and his organization, vulnerability-based trust. That's where things start. We would say that it starts first with self-awareness, and then you you've got to build this vulnerability-based trust. And as Kristen has shared, uh, the formula uh from the book that you had had referenced, or even if it's, you know, the thin book of trust, you have to, you have to really evaluate that and understand what is the level of trust I have with this individual to have a very transparent conversation and to ask that kind of conversation. The other thing I think about is psychological safety. I mean, that is something that we have a diagnostic that measures psychological safety on a team. And I just read uh there's an article that came out because we're a certified partner of the Fearless Organization scan that says psychological safety is not a feeling, it's a signal. And I love that because it's like if you have a if you have a strong degree of psychological safety and trust within a team or between a manager and a direct report, asking the question, you know, uh, what else do you need from me? Or what am you know, how am I helping you the most? And even ask the question, how am I hindering you the most, too? Right. And somebody being able to say, you know what, you know, this checking the number of LinkedIn contacts we have, I don't think it's resulting in the outcome that you had hoped. Right. So so let's talk about that. That could have turned out to be a completely different conversation had your manager just been more open and perhaps a little less intimidated. I don't know, or, you know, bigger, bigger on the inside as he was on the outside. I I hope that makes sense.

Kristen Schmitt 27:04

Yeah. And I mean, I mean, I think to that, it if if this person had said, you know, listen, we we don't have the resources to use recruiters, whatever, this is, you know, this is gonna be our main um source or funnel for for candidates.

John Broer 27:19

Right.

Kristen Schmitt 27:19

Let's talk about how to use this most effectively and what's working.

John Broer 27:24

Yep.

Kristen Schmitt 27:25

And, you know, and what can get in the way of making it happen.

John Broer 27:28

Yeah. So good. Well, Kristen, as we wrap this up, let me ask you, uh, we're just after the first quarter in 2026, and what's got you excited about the rest of the year? Anything in particular that's really got you charged up?

Kristen Schmitt 27:44

It's just the next iteration of what I do. So I've been doing this for a little while now, but I think in order to keep bringing the highest value to my clients, I need to continue to reflect and try new things and continue to get better and better at my craft. And so I think that that that's what gets me up in the morning is is, you know what, I'm working with this great human being and I can help them get there. And how can I help them get there better or faster or all those things? So, so looking at myself as a tool, and how can I continue to sharpen that so I can help good people get to where they want to be faster.

John Broer 28:27

Nice. Well, for anybody out there that you think you're one of those people, go into the show notes, get Kristen's contact information, and I would encourage you to have a conversation with her. I know my conversations have been great, and I'm so glad that we've been connected through our network. And um, yeah, when something, you know, when that next thing happens and you got that, you know, that inspiration, say, hey, let's go share it with the Boss Hole Transformation Nation. We'd love to have you back.

Kristen Schmitt 28:53

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, John. This was great.

John Broer 28:56

You bet. Absolutely, Kristen. And we will see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Boss Hole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the bossholechronicles.com. We'll see you next time.