TBC Flashback - Dr. Kevin Sansberry II: Toxic Leadership

A “toxic leader” can sound like a fixed identity, but Dr. Kevin Sansberry II pushes us to look at something more actionable: toxic leadership behaviors and the systems that reward them. We talk about why Kevin centers on relationships, why he intentionally uses informality to reduce in-group language, and how his work blends behavioral science, applied innovation, and systems thinking to serve people who feel voiceless at work.

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• Click HERE to go to the Toxic Leadership podcast

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Transcript

John Broer 0:06

Welcome back to all of our friends up there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. You are listening to a TBC flashback from June of 2021. This is within the first year of The Bosshole Chronicles kicking off, and we're going to go back and listen to a conversation that Sara and I had with Dr. Kevin Sansberry II. He is the creator and host of the Toxic Leadership Podcast. Beyond that, he has amazing content. But one of the things that you'll find out is that his approach to working with organizations really rests in three areas behavioral science, applied innovation, and systems thinking. And as he says, he works best with leaders and organizations that are ready to think systematically about culture and behavior. We thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. He's still very active in the marketplace, so make sure to check out all the show notes. So let's revisit our conversation with Dr. Kevin Sansberry, the second. Enjoy today's episode. Kevin, welcome to The Boss hole Chronicles. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 1:39

Yeah, hey, I'm I'm so excited to be here. And, you know, John and Sara, when y'all reached out, I was it's a serendipity. You know what I mean? I'm like, yes, more, more, more people in the movement. We can get this critical mass, you know, and I just got really excited because we don't talk about the boss holes enough, to be honest. And the more, the more we're able to dedicate time and space to be proactive is why I do the work that I do with the toxic leadership podcast and the consulting that I do. So yeah, thank you for the invitation and I'm happy to be here.

John Broer 2:09

Oh, great. And and for our listeners who know that we are uh we do reference uh predictive index and the reference profiles, Dr. Sansbury is a Promoter.

Sara Best 2:20

You're a very motivating, stimulating communicator, which I witnessed firsthand. I had an opportunity to uh to listen to your TEDx talk, and that was powerful. Uh the mask we wear in the workplace masquerade, so many rich, quick hits in there that that we can as leaders and managers really start to reflect on and take action on.

Informality As A Bridge To Trust

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 2:42

I actually did a, I just did, I just taught a course like literally 10 minutes ago uh to a to an organization and we talked about motivation and we talked about what motivates people, right? And so, you know, one of my things, you know, the only thing I would add to that is, you know, as you know, as quote unquote in that promoter under the predictive index, I think ri ri results are not necessarily my primary goal. It's more relationships. So not necessarily, you know what I mean, not necessarily being liked per se, but more so building authentic relationships is kind of my my primary thing in anything that I do. Because that is my result. So I I guess that's that's kind of how I view it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then I think, you know, first off, I do want to say, you know, the informality is really a thing for me. So yeah, call me Kevin. Um I I really, I really love uh, I really love that it pulled that out because again, I am really focused on relationships and building up people and getting to know people. And that's where the informality comes in because language, in a way, is a um key or currency into an in-group and out-group. And so a lot of times I find that formality actually creates difference. Formality actually points out to people you don't know these words. You don't know this fancy acronym. And so I always strive to like lower those barriers to connection by being informal and not out of a lack of respect or lack of decorum, but more so to let people know look, regardless of a degree or a job or experience or work, I'm human just like you are. Because to be honest, those are the people who I want to serve the most because they're disenfranchised. People who don't have that formal title or formal authority or what have you. And so, yeah, I use informality a lot. And it may turn people off, but the people that it turns off are the people who typically have the most power. So, and that's and you know what I mean, and that's cool, you know. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm here to, you know, especially with the Toxic Leadership Podcast, I'm here to to lift up the voices of those who feel voiceless, you know. And so I think the promoter definitely speaks to me and the work that I do and how I do it because I want to always promote others. That's like the way I look at it. And, you know, yeah, so I love, I love the PI. That that the PI was fascinating because I didn't, I didn't think I was a promoter based on like how I defined it in my mind. Because I'm like, I'm not like a, you know, I'm not a megaphone type of guy. Here, here, here, you know, but but as I thought more about it intrinsically, um, yeah, it really, it it's really interesting. That's a really interesting tool. So I appreciate being able to get that.

From Psychology To Dark-Side Leadership

John Broer 5:10

Oh, absolutely. And we appreciate your doing it too. And and as you mentioned lifting others up. Um, you know, when I heard uh the episode of the Toxic Leadership podcast and just really how you were drawing out those stories from Dr. Meadows, I really just wanted to find out more. Kevin, with your research and the work that you've done, just kind of going back to a bit of the origin of realizing we've got to help these people come out from underneath toxic leadership. We have to, we have to find a way to help these individuals who are toxic find a better way, a better path. So, so take us back to where you realized I've got something here. I'd like to help people find their voice. What were what was really kind of the origin of that?

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 5:54

The origin of that actually came from, you know, I was doing research and I really got fell in love with psychology. And in particular, I loved abnormal psychology because the notion of abnormality assumed that there was a normal. And I, you know, and I really was interested in like learning more about that. And so I started doing some research early on on influence and on um decision making. And that also led me to doing research on serial killers and criminality. And so, yeah, and so I dug deep into that research and I almost almost went that route of uh criminology and um applied behavioral analysis. But uh I pivoted for some reason. Maybe it was, you know, maybe it was creepy doing research for serial because it was three, three in the morning. I don't know. But whatever it was, I pivoted and I actually got into doing research into leadership behaviors. Because again, if you listen to that, that that implies like influence, decision making, you know, and I got into leadership, right? Right. What I found very striking was I didn't have to pivot that far. Because if you look at what's called the dark side of leadership research, you actually get the same traits as serial killers in a way. So I do, so you know, so it's like it's like very fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And so um, if you look at something called like the dark triad, they talk about narcissism, Machiavellianism, corporate psychopathy. And so those are the traits that I do research in academically. And so as I graduated and started getting more into not only academically publishing papers on CEO narcissism or abusive supervision, right, I started bringing it into my work. And most recently, you know, so I started my firm in 2017 and I did leadership development for folks on a small scale, but I because I also had a nine to five job. But then uh this year I actually pivoted and I'm now doing my work full time and subsequently launched a toxic leadership podcast as a result of that too.

John Broer 7:46

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 7:47

And so, you know, and so now I get to definitely take, you know, what I've learned and academically and what I've been able to apply as an executive coach. I I teach these lessons and actually talk with practitioners so that we can eradicate the toxicity uh within. And so one important piece to note about construct definition is I don't people, I don't say people are toxic. I say they they every all have toxic behaviors.

John Broer 8:11

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 8:11

And I do that because even people who are like the best leaders may have behaviors that may be toxic, maybe that may be destructive in a way. You know, you could have a great leader who is a hard driver of results and they micromanage you, but you get paid, so you're like, okay, they're fine. You know what I mean? But that behavior could be detrimental to somebody. And so, yeah, and so I very I have a distinct um definition that I don't call people toxic per se. And that also is um I also do that because I don't want to to have somebody thinking, okay, there's no way out. There's no way to, you know, there's no way to change.

John Broer 8:49

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 8:50

And so I do it that way too, because we have to have compassion for those we are wanting to serve. And I think the toxic leader that has the toxic leadership behavior, they have a role in shifting to make things better too. Sure. That's right. Um yeah, so it's not just on the victim, it's not just on the employee, it's not just on the people who are a receipt to change the way you're thinking or something like that. It's on those who are perpetuating harm to also shift. But if I was calling people, you're toxic, you know, well, how do you go, how do you go walk back from that? You know, so yeah.

Sara Best 9:20

We often say no one's born to be a bosshole. And it's I I believe wholeheartedly that people experience challenge and even our natural behavioral drives can create a true challenge and obstacle for others. I just love the way you package that. That um not only do leaders have the potential to to to be toxic, but they do hold the responsibility, they share the burden uh and and hold most of that responsibility for restoring themselves, but even less toxic, if you will.

How Toxic Behavior Gets Reinforced

John Broer 9:52

Yeah. Kevin, I I the word toxic jumps out at me and and also the word victim because because when you think about the impact that poor leadership, boss holes, toxic leadership have on not only on the individuals, but also the organization. I also I oftentimes wonder what what is its origin? So does a toxic leader be, I mean, are they have they learned these things? Do they do they have sort of a twisted? I'm kind of going back to the serial killer sort of thing. Well, you know, I and by the way, some of the most popular podcasts out there are about serial killers. So you may have just found an intersection between leadership and serial killers. Of course. It might have a new niche in the podcast world. I don't know. But what is your research and what is your work revealed in terms of how toxic leaders come about and what sort of perpetuates that and why we have such difficulty eradicating this from our organizations?

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 10:50

So research dream, if you looked at like uh abuse of supervision, for example, which is a construct, some some in aspects of parenting and childhood trauma uh can can be an antecedent, meaning it could it could be, it could influence, you know what I mean, that to manifest. If you look at something like uh a behavior that we a lot of people view as pretty toxic, is micromanaging. Micromanaging could manifest due to um a lack of trust and you know, different things like that. Uh there are also behaviors related to um people who are perfectionists and super demanding. You know, there's been research to show that that can manifest due to unmet needs somewhere else in their life, and they they project it to something they have control over, which is their direct reports and stuff like that. And if you go further down to research, it actually show, you know, they were like, oh, you can mitigate that by actually physical exercise. So like there's all kinds of stuff there. So, so, you know, there are things that um, you know, the workplace itself, like the uh non-participative workplaces, workplaces that are high in competition for like no reason with each other, like you got that. Those kind of workplaces can breed certain behaviors that allow folks to achieve whatever result the company wants, but not the result as it relates to the relationships internally. And so, you know, you can fight for we need to get these sales, uh, we need to have all these sales uh, you know, by the quarter or what have you.

John Broer 12:16

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 12:17

And regardless of what your personal life is like, regardless of like your work time off and that kind of stuff. And so, you know, your external environment can influence behaviors that are less than optimal or getting to that toxic zone, definitely. But again, some of your past experiences that have been reinforced over time and sometimes rewarded over time, that's how they manifest.

Sara Best 12:40

Yeah, I can't help but think too about natural behavioral drives for different people in the workplace, they're going to need different things. And so um, using the same approach, a hard-driving, you know, a goal-oriented, competitive kind of approach will not work for everybody, even everybody on the sales team. So it's about kind of adapting those expectations and the way in which leaders interface uh with people. But John, I think that was a really powerful question. And uh, Kevin, your response about childhood trauma and things that we encounter, you know, before we come to the workplace, we we can't step over that lightly. And it's it is something that all leaders should kind of evaluate for themselves and definitely seek professional help, if in fact the feedback they received is that you know they're on the toxic level for sure.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 13:31

Sure. And and and it's it's for the leader to be able to listen to those cues and for all of us to have the emotional intelligence to be self-aware when things get brought to us. Yeah. Because this uh the toxic, you know, toxic leadership in itself has, of course, individual characteristics that you want to look at within a leader. But we have to go deeper and go upstream and look at, you know, let's call it a disease, but look at the entire manifestation itself. So we need to look at the culture, we need to look at the organizational climate, we need to look at the outcomes that it has on business to make this change too. Because if it's just, hey, person change because it's detrimental, if the environment's not rewarding the change, or if the environment's actually perpetuating that behavior to stay the same, you're gonna have a toxic leader. You're gonna have a boss hole that it's just gonna breed boss hole literally. You know it's gonna be there, you know? So we have to be very mindful of not only putting the burden solely on people to change, we have to, you know, we have to model that organizationally.

Mitigation Starts With Introspection

John Broer 14:30

Yes. It's interesting because when we talk about culture or the sort of organizational constructs or how an organization evolves, we get a lot of executives that say, well, this is the kind of culture we want. Okay, well, you can't artificially create a culture. Your culture is a result of, I mean, you look at Schirm's definition, it's a result of how leadership influences and oversees the organization. It's it's a result, it's not a remedy. So you've got to go way back upstream and you've got to go to those managers and supervisors, make sure we've got the people aligned in the right role and start at that level. But that's that's heavy lifting. That is and and one of the things that that I want to hear more from you is you talk about mitigation and and the work around that with within leadership or managers and supervisors. Tell us more about that and and that kind of work that you're doing.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 15:26

So some of the work I've started doing, uh, especially as it relates to to diversity, equity, inclusion, organizations are doing a lot of that now. Uh, my change model that I use looks at mitigation and addresses mitigation by focusing on conditioning. And so what I mean by that is we actually start introspectively. Because, like I said, a lot of these antecedents or uh factors that that breed toxicity could come from our past, could come from what we know or we think we know of how to lead, stuff like that. And so I always have people do a lot more introspection up front because I believe if we focus inward, we'll get outward results versus the other way around. And it is, and it's not a dichotomy. You do both at the same time. But a lot of organizations, what they do is like, oh, we need to make a new policy or we need to do this thing, but they don't address people's mental models. And so behind closed doors, people aren't following whatever policy you wrote in the HR department. They're doing, you know, and and when when you ask people to to describe their organizational culture and climate, they're actually gonna not tell you the stuff HR is doing or the stuff you hear at the all-staff meeting. What they feel is what they have at their localized culture. And so you have to address the managers at the, you know, introspectively at that level. And so as it relates to mitigation, uh, I I do, you know, I do a fair work globally, like global culture, organizational culture. So I work with HR departments, legal teams, and stuff like that in various firms. But I want to give you a quick data point uh from my from some of my research. I did research in my uh, so based on my TED talk, the masks we wear in Workplace Masquerade, I did research on how often or how likely is somebody gonna mask their values and adopt organizational values they don't believe in. And I did that in the space of a toxic work environment, toxic leadership, right? What I found was those who had a perception of organizational support actually were more likely to mask their values.

unknown 17:29

Right?

John Broer 17:29

Interesting.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 17:30

I was wrong. So I hypothesized that they wouldn't. I was like, nah, if they have organizational support, people would more likely just be themselves, you know, inclusion, da da da. But I actually found the opposite. And so what that's leading me to believe, or leading me to I'm gonna do more research, but what that what that's leading me to go down is do people want to keep the organizational support so they wear that mask? Like do they don't want to lose it now? And so it's like, how can we go upstream organizationally to counteract organizational support being viewed as something you're gonna lose if you be yourself? That's that's just another thought to think about, right? Another thing I found was people were more likely to not wear their metaphorical mask and be themselves more when they felt like that had organization or coworker support.

John Broer 18:22

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 18:24

Right? So the perception of coworker support, the more likely people felt they had that coworker support, they were like, you know what? I can, I can be myself. So what that's telling me is it's not solely the procedures and the policies and this organizational culture, this abstract organizational culture concept that we talk about that's gonna get what we want. It's really gonna be the level of community. It's gonna be the level of critical mass we have here from a people standpoint. So our coworkers. And so what I say by that is that question of coworkers, not saying necessarily people at your same level. So that could be managers. You know what I mean? Like they're coworkers, right? So basically it's like how we treat each other, not just the policies and procedures and the and the values we got on the wall and the pretty videos we got, like all those fanciful and organizational culture things is not the sole um driver.

Sara Best 19:13

Kevin, I would love to just understand a little bit more about what you mean by organizational support.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 19:19

So that construct is formally called a perception of organizational support. And specifically in my study, I wanted I hypothesize that if people felt like the things we do from an organizational culture standpoint you know, benefit people. I wanted to, I wanted to I hypothesize that as they see the staff meetings and they see the listening tours and they see the, they see the support, and it's great. I just hypothesize that folks would uh truly be themselves and not feel the need to mask their values. And but that but that's specifically what I was looking for. And so what that, yeah, so that's what it looks like. It just looks at like how people perceive these things that we do in the workplace from a support standpoint. Yeah. Sure.

Sara Best 20:06

So things like an engagement survey and you call them listening sessions and getting pulse checks and the way organizations attempt to be responsive to the needs of their employees, the changing needs, that kind of stuff.

Masking Values At Work Explained

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 20:20

I well, I would actually so my academically I would challenge an engagement survey only because one might ask, does the engagement survey itself, based on how it's used, does it support me as an employee? Or is it supporting an organization that has some kind of scorecard and check the box that they did an engagement survey? So per perceptive organization support really goes into how do those things impact people? And are you know what I mean? And so are they done in the spirit of centering the needs of the people, or are they done in the spirit of centering the needs of the organization? So engagement, basically what I'm trying to say is an engagement survey could be in that category, but it really depends on the population and how they perceive it.

Sara Best 20:58

Yes.

John Broer 20:58

Yep, yep. Or or even or even how the how the engagement assessment is actually built. I mean, you know, the the Yeah, yeah, how it's constructed, because there are thousands of them out there. I mean, we use one with in our work, but it's very specific to the manager, and and we define engagement as an employee's emotional connection to the organization and its goals. Yeah. Because ultimately, if you don't feel that, you are never going to have get performance retention and things that come with engagement. Something you said, though, that I think is really interesting, and Sarah, I'm going to connect this back to another podcast. We just had you said when they are able to take off that metaphorical mask and be themselves is really when they have support from their colleagues. Is that correct? Is that what it was?

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 21:44

Yeah, as perception of coworker support increased, the likelihood of people not having to feel in a need to mask up. Yeah.

John Broer 21:50

Okay. Okay. Not to mask up. I love that. Because we just had Dr. Richard Schell on a podcast from the Wharton School, and his book, his new book called The Conscience Consciousness. code, he talks about how it can be oppressive in an organization when you have people of, well, that are that are absent of conscience and are compromising their their values or or core yeah core values.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 22:15

Yes core values. Yeah.

John Broer 22:16

But when an individual feels like they have a partner in it or they they have somebody with whom they can share that, it totally changes things. Sarah, do you remember when he talked about that? I do.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 22:28

That aligns and that aligns exactly with my findings. Yep. So it's the same, it's the same thing. And I and Dr. Shell will actually be on the Toxic Leadership podcast as well. And uh definitely I definitely agree. Well I mean I don't have to agree my research agrees. So so so I mean you know so like it's it's what Dr. Shell is stating is proof of what I'm saying in a way. Right. That's that's actually called the buffering hypothesis of coworker support. And so what that what that means is and what it looks at is coworker support may be able to buffer the negative effects of a boss hole, the negative effects of a toxic leader, you know, that has that behavior. And that just tells me where we need to spend more time organizationally.

Sara Best 23:12

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 23:12

Right? And it and it tells me how can we not like again I engagement surveys and all that kind of stuff are great. But the thing about engagement surveys is here's why here's where it won't become an organizational support mechanism. If I told you about a boss hole in those culture and climate surveys, engagement surveys and nobody did anything about it, guess what goes out the window? It doesn't, it's not a thing.

unknown 23:31

Right?

John Broer 23:32

Exactly. You're absolutely right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 23:33

Yep so so we spent time so HR departments and you know chief people officers and whomever you know that spend time on these organizational support mechanisms, they have a place, but we also have to spend time on coworker support mechanisms concurrently and build that community. Because if we ask for folks to follow like an anti-harassment policy for example, you're gonna get your greatest success when there is modeling and norms that are done at the on the individual level, not just do we memorize the policy? No, right I need to I need to have a culture where people can call out things that don't reach the level of policy so that we don't even get to the you know sexual harass harassment or discrimination or something like that. I want to have a culture of people working together to create the culture not just having artifacts as a compliance mechanism. And so that's where I believe you know that yeah so that's just where I believe the coworker support can actually be you could turn that into a mechanism of organized organizational support if you if you if you are strategic about it. Sure.

Sara Best 24:34

Love that and I hope leaders and managers and CEOs and other C-suite people are listening and and recognizing that that's a place to direct effort and energy especially now with this hybrid workforce. Kevin, what what are your thoughts about you know fostering that level of community because your research shows that the level of community supersedes the perception of organizational support. How do we do that via Zoom and Teams and I'm in the office on Tuesdays and you're in the office on Wednesdays.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 25:06

Geographic you know proximity and work and remote does take more work, right? It takes different work, I guess I will say and so as we think about hyper remote organizations and organizations that have flexible schedules and flexible ways to meet, keep that flexibility. But we also need to build in time for flexible informality. And so how are we also going to build in time where it's like hey you know let's have our staff meeting at a park or let's you know meet at let's meet somewhere you know just more more more opportunity do that too. And I think it's kind of like having a long distance relationship if if anybody's ever had one, you know, I I've never had one but I've I've heard that they take more work for a reason right and so you know so work is a form of a relationship. So it's the same notion you can think about it takes more work and it just takes different level of engagement due to that lack of geographic proximity. Now I know some people one thing about remoteness some people have their mental model where they're like oh we're more profitable and we work better together if we are always together. I I challenge that. Yeah right so like we have to be able to I think I think when you work with people the more flexible we can be the more inclusive we can be right and so if we we need to jump off of our own mental models of of that but yeah I just think ask people what their preferences are related to engagement in those settings and we do our best to create systems to meet those preferences. But we have to ask and we have to have these conversations and these conversations are better to have better had not through your engagement survey but through qualitative kind of conversations and lunch and you know kind of lunch and learn type of deals where we just have conversation and facilitation and stuff like that. That's where you're going to get that data.

Building Community In Hybrid Teams

John Broer 26:55

Well and and and you're going to need leaders that are hungry for that and understand the value in that I mean they are the ones that are seeking that out. And I don't I mean I I use this when I whenever I'm doing a keynote or a a presentation you know I I started my practice my first practice back in 1997 and the number one issue what that organizations and my clients were experiencing is is we're having trouble with our managers. We're not sure that they're equipped and it's like oh my gosh we are still talking about this why do we continue to perpetuate this and allow and I don't think it's I don't think it's you know an evil plot. I don't think there's anything really behind it. I just think it's a little bit careless and it is and you know what we say is that the there should be a really wide and very well developed pathway for individual contribution in an organization and a person should be able to see and be guided and coached down that. And then the the pathway into leadership and management should be high the threshold should be higher and the requirements more significant because you are in charge you are responsible for other humans. And we have some clients that absolutely see that and then others that just say well you're you're you know you're convenient you've been here longest let's put you in management. Yeah. And that's where you get boss hole zones or toxic leadership you know at its best.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 28:15

Yeah and to that point one of the biggest or one of the most common toxic behaviors that we actually pride a lot of times in society but we don't we don't do enough to counteract it whether you know it's hubris is hubris right so if you look at you know how people show up leaders typically are assumed to know the answer and know the way and hubris is like fed we feed it yeah I think if we did a lot more spend a lot more time praising the vulnerability praising not knowing yes praising what you learned versus praising what you know you'll start to see C suites for example being open to new ideas being open to listening to the all all up and down the organizational chart.

Sara Best 29:12

Yes and being willing to admit that they are part of the problem.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 29:17

Sure. They might be willing to say gosh I have perpetuated something that's really unhealthy unknowingly and Sarah that's why and and that's and a lot of times that's why they don't hire us you know we we we uncover those kinds of things and sometimes the truth is hard to hear and I spent a lot of time working with leaders uh C-suite executives explaining that I lead by vulnerability so I'm like oh here's a here's a mistake I made or here's something I did that was actually very similar but here's what I learned from it.

John Broer 29:48

Right.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 29:48

I I share these stories and I share that perspective because I want everybody to know that you know you might be a CEO but guess what? You make mistakes so if we own up that's the best way to show that vulnerability and if we're talking about building a anti-boss hole culture that is counteracting toxic leadership, CEO vulnerability and CEO being able to admit fault can transcend the organizational culture and climate.

Sara Best 30:15

Oh yeah that's well said I want to go back for a quick second too I I just keep floating around with this this sense of coworker support and a sense of community and I do think you know your comments about hubris and vulnerability, you know, the the really letting vulnerability be more the norm, combining that with just spending time together. I mean you pretty much said you know opportunities in an informal way to build relationship. And whether that's at a park or even on a casual Zoom meeting, it's being intentional about seeking fundamental understanding of one another. And gosh those aren't hard to do. They don't have it cost a big budget you know they really just require some self-awareness some insight and what a big difference that can make for our outcomes, you know, how we serve our clients. So I I I love that you connected all those things.

John Broer 31:11

I was also thinking about uh another one of our guests Tony Moore uh Tony's out of Florida great guy what did the what is he the culture coach or the culture architect that's right and culture architect. The culture architect but Kevin the something that you said that made me think about how Tony does his work is he said he meets with a CEO for him to take on any engagement or any work with an organization he meets with the CEO or the the members of the C suite and say love the opportunity to work with your organization but we're gonna start here we're gonna start with you and if there's any pushback you know he says I'm just not sure I'm the best fit here because if you're not willing to show that if you're not willing to work on you then it's not going to work anywhere else. I think that is I think that is a great thing. So to your point we could get kicked out of a a C-suite pretty quickly if we're if we're pressing the reality button a little bit too hard. But I don't think that's a bad thing these days.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 32:09

No not at all and you know there's actually research called emotional contagion that actually looks at the fact of you know your CEO and your C-suites how they show up emotionally transcends the organization negatively or positively or neutrally and so the reality that again a lot of C-suites have that hubris and oh we're we're we're not the problem in in reality some C-suites may not be the catalyst to a lot of the box hole or toxicity but the fact that we have boss holes and toxicity is the problem. Yes. Right right and so you can be complicit but not an active an actor you know you know in in the in the in the in the in the negativity but being complicit is you might as well be. Yeah. So yeah so I I totally agree with uh with the cultural architect there I love I love that approach because as a practitioner and consultant why waste my time if you know you're not going to have the impact as necessary.

Sara Best 33:04

Absolutely Dr. Travis Bradbury uh who's kind of an EQ guru among other really good authors uh he indicated research that he did that demonstrated that the higher you go in an organization, the lower the level of emotional intelligence.

John Broer 33:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Best 33:21

And and I think that that could be true. And even if we just looked at self-awareness, that's where the complicity comes in. Like it's not it's not enough not to know yourself and how you're engaging with this. I do have a question Kevin.

Vulnerability Beats Hubris In Leaders

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 33:34

Oh hold on hold on let me let me let me say I make a statement real quick. Oh please so so before we jump into the question I want to I want to ask a question about what you just said. So I'm familiar with that research and it makes me wonder some of those people in the C suite were individual contributors. They were in they were in different parts of that little chart right so do do people magically lose their EQ do they magically lose their EQ or does the expectations and how we've crafted roles not perpetuate EQ to be important?

John Broer 34:06

That's a great question. That is a great point.

Sara Best 34:08

Yep I may be the subject of my dissertation by everybody that is so good. Okay so you ready for the question? Yes yes have you ever been a boss hole?

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 34:20

Yeah of course maybe you have a good boss hole story either or someone you worked for you no I'll I'll share so my and this is a story of growth and um so I was unknowingly a boss hole early part of my leadership career where I was the leader who became a leader based on my ability to interact with people but also based on my skill and ability to create new products and you know do new things and things like that. The lesson I didn't learn as I transitioned into a leader at the time was a delegation is actually a thing. You should do that.

John Broer 34:59

Like that should be a thing right it's a it's a good thing yeah that's a good thing that's not a bad thing.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 35:03

That doesn't make you bad I got a 360 and 360s are awesome. And I wasn't even nervous I was ready for it whatever and it was actually it was actually really good but what stuck out to me was all my direct reports talked about well you could you know we'd love for you to delegate more and it wasn't from like hey you're a boss hole I'm calling myself a boss hole but it was more so hey we we believe in our mission and we want to help we want to be a part of this too. We want to be more a part of it more accountable and all that kind of stuff and I that hit me like a ton of bricks and I wasn't like mad it was I was like oh wow you know so I'm like thinking about like okay what can I do better? And ever since then literally that's like kind of how I leave uh I spent a lot more time learning more about what people want to do in their growth and I I I'm actually became like a really great delegator and like that's based, I mean based on feedback from direct reports or what have you and but but I look back and I'm like man I was such a boss hole um but I'm like oh my God because it cause right because now because now as I as I as I grew I'm like oh my gosh of course delegate and I I teach delegation courses like right exactly yeah so like I I it's obvious now but beforehand you know probably about you know 10 years ago it didn't it didn't even hit me because I was I was I was rewarded and praised for what I know and what I do not necessarily how I lead. Right. And so it took me a while to understand the difference when you flip over from individual contributor to uh being a leader or what have you in the leadership uh line. Right. And and so I became you know I became like an assistant vice president level and I had a I had a large a larger team than even I had at that time and literally one of my one of my uh what's the word I'm looking for principles of how I lead was however any if any however anybody needed to meet with me as a leader, I made that time for them. And it was very inclusive and very differentiated between the person. And so not only did I delegate but if somebody needed to meet with me twice a week three times a week every day every two weeks whatever your preference was I met that preference and that's how I that's how I led from then on uh very equitably and very inclusive based on the individual's needs. But that taught me a very valuable lesson early in my leadership career. Nice.

Sara Best 37:20

Yeah well and your promoter pattern has with it a a low drive for formality. So you're flexible spontaneous you don't necessarily want to attend to the details so I love the connection you made about you know empowering others to to manage the details they want to help they want to grow that's number one yep so go ahead.

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 37:42

The light went off right there was like Yeah oh my God Yeah you saying that is like fascinating because I'm like that it I I actually didn't even know the damage it was doing to me by not delegating. Because to because to your point Sarah I really appreciate you looking that up I I like there were details I was having to deal with day in, day out that I actually when I to be honest, I should have delegated. It wasn't really my role to deal with but it allowed people who have that higher drive for details it allowed them to get in their wheelhouse and it allowed me to stay big picture. And I never I never thought about it like that.

John Broer 38:12

Well it's like a superpower yeah well and I think I think it uh only reinforces when we're telling organizations that as as you put somebody on that pathway to leadership or management, you have to equip them. You have to prepare them for it. Don't just drop them in. And part of that is understanding self-awareness, reality testing, learning the skills of delegation and empowerment. Those are I never had them when I got into it. And I came home exhausted and it was like why don't you just you know somebody said to me why are you not why are you doing this stuff? Why are you not delegating you I totally get that but so Kevin, this is I tell you what this is just absolutely awesome and and I I feel like we need a part two at some point. Maybe we do I just we re we reconvene because we would love to hear more about your research and the work that you're doing. But tell our for all of our listeners get into the show notes check out you know Kevin's information we'll post up his LinkedIn information uh a link to uh the Toxic Leadership podcast but what's what's on the horizon for you relative to the podcast sort of your fully full on consulting practice just give our listeners a sense of that.

What’s Next And Share Your Story

Dr. Kevin Sansberry II 39:21

Yeah yeah so I've expanded my work and I'm currently you know I've built a model related to some of the DI work uh that I've been doing for years but I created a model that actually connects to the toxic to transformational work that I do. And uh it all connects together and I'm working on formalizing that and expanding that into organizations. And so that I already I already work with three organizations that I'm already having prototyped they're prototyping it and everything's working out just fine and working on refinement. I'm also going to be doing academic literature into that soon as well. Second, definitely check out the podcast uh one of the things related to the work that I do on the podcast that's actually been really fast fascinating is I'm doing a lot more keynotes and I'm doing a lot more I'm having a lot more conversations with folks about these aspects formally in the workplace setting. And so I'm always open to you know doing talks and doing uh keynotes related to these topics because as as my uh PI promoter you know you know indicates you know I I I I am I'm very open to different ideas and I'm very open to just chatting with you informally. So I'm always looking for opportunity to come in and help people and you know again be the promoter for the voice you know voices of the voiceless.

Sara Best 40:42

So well I think all listeners have to do is go check out your TED talk. If they just Google your name yes um Dr. Kevin Sansbury the second they'll find a host of uh connections your LinkedIn profile but the the TED talk helps us understand too what a dynamic speaker you are. So thank you shout out for that.

John Broer 41:01

Well Kevin Kevin this has been this has been a real gift for our listeners we appreciate your time uh your insights your expertise and uh I do hope this is only the first of many times we get a chance to interact. Absolutely thank you both thank you Kevin see you next time thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles it was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation nation just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the bossholechronicles com. Again mystory at the bossholechronicles