Mark Ostach - The Gift of Connection

Your attention isn’t just getting interrupted, it’s getting retrained. We sit down with digital wellness guide and speaker Mark Ostach to unpack why so many of us feel rushed, reactive, and oddly disconnected even when we’re “caught up.” Mark joins us to share the heart behind his new book, The Gift of Connection: Reclaiming Presence in the Age of Distraction, and to make a clear case that presence is no longer a nice-to-have skill. It’s a survival skill for leaders, parents, and anyone living on screens.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

Hannah Best 0:12

Hey everyone out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is Hannah Best. I'm your co-host today. And boy do we have a good episode for you. I'm joined with my lovely mother, friend, coworker, Sara Best. Sara, who are we talking to today?

Sara Best 0:29

Hey Hannah! This is awesome. We're doing this more and more. We get to be together on the podcast. Oh my gosh, today is a very wonderful episode. We are speaking to, um, he's a three-time guest now, as of today, on The Bosshole Chronicles. It's Mark Ostach. Mark is a digital wellness guru. Among other things, he's just an incredibly faithful guy. He's super, super smart, and he's got some real practical insights for us today. I would say how to survive and thrive in this very unique time that we live in. And it's not just because of all the AI transformation and the political challenge and the wars and the economy. This his work goes back 10 years. And he's actually going to tell us today, Hannah, about um his new book, which we'll be dropping this fall called The Gift of Connection. Reclaiming Presence in the Age of Distraction. So what do you say? Let's dig in.

Announcer 1:52

Enjoy today's episode.

Sara Best 1:56

Wow, Mark, a hat trick. This is your third time on The Bosshole Chronicles. We're so lucky. Your work in human courage and connection, vulnerability, wellness, gratitude, resilience, leadership energy, digital well-being. And we've known each other five years. That's what you first spoke about when I got to hear you speak was digital well-being. It is phenomenal and it's gaining ground and it's so essential. So thank you for being with us today. Also with us today is Hannah Best, our co-host. And I think Hannah, how about if I just kick it over to you? Uh, because Mark has some pretty interesting and exciting news, and you can start us there.

Hannah Best 2:37

Yes, absolutely. Well, I'm so happy to be here. And this is my first time on with Mark and an exciting time to be with you. You have a new book just finished up. It's called The Gift of Connection, Reclaiming Presence in the Age of Distraction. I would love to start. Tell us what's happening in your life. What made you realize that this book needed to be written?

The Gift Of Connection Book Premise

Mark Ostach 3:00

Sure. Thank you so much. Uh, first of all, before I answer that directly, I I feel like I'm in a uh best sandwich. I've got Sarah and her daughter Hannah, the best of the best. So this will be the best of the three podcasts. If you're listening and you say, hey, I remember that guy from before. Um so Hannah, thanks for joining us. And uh Sarah, I'm I'm uh what what a joy it is to have, you know, two two best uh women uh here on this on this podcast. But Hannah, to answer your question, I do have a book coming out. It launches on September 9th. It's called The Gift of Connection: Reclaiming Presence in the Age of Distraction. And I think I'll just start with uh the age of distraction. Uh we all know it, we feel it. Uh uh, you know, you're checking your phone on the bathroom, uh, you wake up feeling behind and you haven't even gone to the restroom yet. You go to bed exhausted, not you specifically, but we all feel this tension that's growing. And I really feel like it's kind of the last 10 years of work that I've been able to do and observe, uh, put together in 200 pages of what I'd say a story-based narrative on how we can regain presence uh in an era that it's really, really hard. And I'll share kind of the one of the central premises. Um there was a law in the 1970s called Moore's Law. It was developed by Gordon Moore, who is the co-founder of Intel. And he basically said, Hey, every two years our computers will will double their power. That law has held true for the last four decades, and that's why computers are bigger, faster, smarter, and they fit in our fit in our pockets and our purses. Well, as I was kind of uh meditating on that truth of computers getting more powerful, I'm actually going to introduce today a new law on your podcast. So if we can insert some you know drum rolling here, uh here we go. I want to call it Mark's Law. And Mark's Law basically states that every 10 years, our attention span decreases by two seconds. And this has held true since the year 2000 and is continuing to hold its integrity as we enter into you know two 2030 in just a few years. And when you look at presence as a commodity and you begin to think about our attention as the currency that allowed us, allows us to feel seen and heard and valued and uh human, you realize that we're running into attention in humanity that we need to do something about it. So this book is not an anti-technology manifesto. It isn't a uh a cry for a future that doesn't look like the reality we're currently in today. It is an encouraging reminder to double down on finding ways to cultivate presence in your work and in your home. Moore's law demands more power. Mark's law demands more presence.

Sara Best 5:48

Oh, presence. Uh, I would like to ask you what constitutes presence. But before you answer that, I would like to also ask, well, I'd like to acknowledge, Mark, that I loved when you said this is not a cry for what's not happening now. Because there's plenty of I think we fall into that trap even here on the podcast. We talk about what we wish could happen and what we need it, what we should be doing, what we need to be doing. If it's not that, then it's a reminder. You called it a reminder. So when you answer the question first about what is presence, then could you tell us what can we be reminded about daily? Little things. What are the things that we need to remember

Mark’s Law And The Attention Crisis

Sara Best 6:33

to find the presence?

Mark Ostach 6:35

Yeah. So let me just give kind of a crash course in uh uh neuroscience. We have two parts of our brain for purposes of this illustration, our downstairs brain and our upstairs. This is rooted in social emotional uh uh theory. When we are uh overwhelmed, overworked, tired, angry, frustrated, um, feeling uh you know, disconnected, we are operating in our downstairs brain. Just think of yourself in the basement of your existence. And it's like, ugh. And uh the only way to get to your upstairs brain where you have better uh recall, recognition, ability to listen, reflect, learn, etc., requires your breath. Your breath is the thing that gets your brain from your downstairs to your upstairs and other healthy coping mechanisms that we could get into later. So presence is really acknowledging when you're in your downstairs brain and having the awarewithal and strategies to get to your upstairs brain. And the truth is that it sounds like that should be simple because that original work was developed for kindergarten classrooms, but it actually holds true in boardrooms as well. And so uh quieting the mind through breath, through um, you know, finding uh, you know, a quick way to move your body before another Teams call or another Zoom session, or uh, you know, having a nonverbal cue to your loved one when the kids are acting up and all you want to do is yell and join them in the basement of their brains. Right? Like, what are you doing to create that space? And and then you add this idea that like your breath, which slows your heart rate, which brings you into presence, is the kind of the best path to get there. Uh you hold the attention that of the you know 80 years that the average person will live on life, one fourth of those years will be spent behind a screen. And I I jump to that because when you're on a screen, you have a tendency for your heart not to beat as it should in the rhythms of the real world. Because the um the sporadic nature of the content, like you could you could check your phone and in in 15 seconds read about a war that's going on, uh a tertiary friend that has a GoFundMe campaign for a child who's dying, uh, a divorce that just happened in your community, and somebody who's asking for hired for work because they've just lost their job. In 15 seconds, you can consume those things. Your heart digests those digital calories and it puts you into a state of defib, digital fibrillation, where you're literally just your your rhythm is off. And when your rhythm's off, you're just more prone to being your downstairs brain. This isn't like an over overtly mindful book. It's more practical, like uh whether you're a parent or whether you're a and I think Gen Z is like on the move to revival in real life living. I see it in my Instagram channels all the time, right? Like the next flip phone, the, you know, the the person, you know, the anti-tech, you know, vantage point. Maybe that's just my algorithm. But um, what happens is when you get into defib or when you stay stuck in your downstairs brain, you're more susceptible to what's called life lagging. And we all know what life lagging looks like when we merge onto a highway and our Google map shows us that we have yellow and red lines in the highway ahead of us. And immediately reminds us that, oh, we're about to be slowed down in our speed of our car. I think life lagging is a uh an unfortunate symptom of this digital living, where let's say you're in Costco's parking lot and you're about to uh find the perfect spot so you could go in and get all of the free samples your heart's desires. And the person who has their car uh car lights on, implying that they're going to leave the spot, should be leaving in the next few seconds, but instead stays there scrolling and catching up on the digital chores. And before you know it, you're holding up the whole line because you think that spot's about to open up. And that is just a small little fragment of life lagging that perpetuates in our culture. And before you know it, we have a world who is disconnected in our downstairs brain

Presence Through Breath And Regulation

Mark Ostach 10:58

all because we were just we gravitated back to our, you know, a quick check-in on these devices. Um, we see it when making lunches for our kids at home. Uh we'll come home, we're exhausted, the day's done, and it's like my wife will say, Hey, I'm gonna make lunches, and I'll go, okay, I'm gonna handle the upstairs, get them showered, you know, we'll meet on the couch for 26 minutes of Netflix and quiet time. And I'll come down after a 30-minute argument with the kids, sword fighting with their toothbrushes in mom and dad's bathroom. And my wife will have been in midair with the peanut butter knife, and the sandwiches are still dry, and not a single spread of the peanut butter jellies on the sandwiches. And I think, what on earth have you been doing this whole time? And I come to realize that she got a text of a friend who needs prayer. She's on a group chat about when are we going to meet up for our next uh book club. And then she had her mom texting her about plans for Sunday, all things that are relevant, but took away from what she needed to be doing in the moment that should have taken 10 minutes, now has lagged on because of her inability, and it's just not her, it's all of us. This is a common scenario we found ourselves in. So you're starting to see that these digital devices aren't just so disruptive in like the uh oh, I work too much. It's creating a lag in the rhythms of life that produce healthy places. And if you lag before you go to bed and it's only 30 minutes on Instagram, and you wake up every day saying you're tired, over the course of a week or a month, you know, you're you're you're losing four hours or 16 hours of sleep just by lagging through these digital habits. So um, those are some of the core concepts that I kind of use to set up the book before diving into you know what we can do about it.

Sara Best 12:46

I'm I'm kind of going, wow, I I feel very convicted right now. Like I definitely need to be reminded and remember um how to not be on basement brain autopilot, which I think a lot of us unknowingly spend quite a bit of our time in the basement brain. Wait, am I saying that in the downstairs brain? Sorry. In the downstairs brain. Yeah, it's quite natural. And and this dysregulation and this intensity and the wanting to respond to all the things and and the access people have to us in all these digital ways makes it extra hard, doesn't it?

Mark Ostach 13:18

Yeah.

Sara Best 13:19

Okay, so what hope do you offer us today?

Mark Ostach 13:22

That's a great question. I think, and and Sarah, you know this, right? Like um when you realize that there's change that needs to happen, you need to be aware of the change and you need to have enough pain in your current existence to fight the resistance required for the change.

Sara Best 13:40

Yep.

Mark Ostach 13:40

And the reason why people stay stuck in patterns and really the the uh the social the social media and the phones and these sorts of things, that it's a societal symptom of what's known as the herd effect, where you're just functioning in the herd brain and you're operating like everyone's doing it, just like cigarettes in the 30s and 40s. But the hope that I have is that I really do believe that there is a bit of a an awakening happening right now. Um, I just ordered a phone called the Meadow, and it is a uh think of it as half the size of your smartphone, and it does maps, music, photos, and allows you to call and receive phone calls from 12 people.

Digital Defib And Life Lagging

Mark Ostach 14:26

Oh. And it connects to your existing number. So when I go on a run now and I don't want to take my phone, but yeah, my wife wants to make sure I didn't like keel over of dehydration two miles into my run. I can now take my meadow and put it in my like, you know, pocket and listen to my Spotify playlist and know that she and you know 12 other people can get a hold of me. But I'm not getting hit by, oh, hey, let me post this cool picture of this tree I saw on Instagram halfway through my run, and then check my email, and then before you know it, I've lagged what should be a 20-minute run, it's not 40 minutes, and I haven't even really broke a sweat.

unknown 15:03

Yeah.

Mark Ostach 15:04

I've started and stopped. So the metaphone is like a tactical way. Um, I think the the the the larger way is that um one of my favorite authors is a gentleman named Cal Newport. He leads a lot of this work through digital minim minimalism. He just uh released a book called A World Without Email. He's a brilliant mind on this topic of digital ethics and uh and things that we kind of overlap with my work, focus more on wellness. But he said the best way to override the short-term gain from checking your phone often or your email or just being a tether, a slate to your device is to have clear long-term goals. Yeah. The neurocircuitry that fires when you're getting the quick hit of dopamine on the email check or the scroll is hard to override because it's such a quick, it's like the slot machine, right? Yeah. But the neural circuitry that fires when you're working on or towards a long-term goal overrides the neural circuitry that happens when you're on the short-term firing. And this is best displayed in a research study where they were looking at dopamine releasing of rats who were in a controlled study, and they were giving a rat a piece of cheese. And as you would imagine, when the rat received the cheese, uh, they measured um a positive response and released dopamine. It wasn't until the researchers put uh a couple of roadblocks in the maze for the rat to get the cheese where the rats had to quote unquote work for the cheese. And when they worked and they figured out the maze and they cleared the hurdle and they got their heart rate up and they had moments of frustration and they got to the cheese, they saw a significantly higher release of dopamine because the rat had to work through those issues. So the problem becomes is that when we're, you know, we've lost our autonomy to just think, reflect, pursue, do, create out of the imaginations of our own uh, you know, existence, because uh the patterns of the world that we've conformed to have been in our algorithms that have shaped our conversations, our ideas, or the evil trap of comparison that leaves us per uh paralyzed, not wanting to take action on the things that we have on our heart. So I said a lot there, but I'll simplify it by saying when you get a hold of where where you want to take your life through your personal and professional goals, you have fuel that overrides your tendency to zone out and scroll, right? Or drift. When we drift, we need something to get us to shift back into uh position to go to head north to where where we feel like our lives are calling us to go.

Sara Best 17:56

That's interesting to think that clear long-term goals are the fuel to shift to find a way to override that default of uh the downstairs brain or the the dope seeking the dopamine hit. I don't know what you're talking about, by the way. I have no experience with that. Yeah, yeah. I would say um this sounds too it it feels very familiar. Um it's similar to the conscious leadership group and the principles of being above the line and below the line. They they did not design those principles, but they use those. Yeah, uh, the idea of being above the line and below the line and also shifting and drifting. Yeah. So I loved your definition of presence. When we become aware that we're in the downstairs brain, functioning from the downstairs brain, we are automatically present. And I think you've made a really important business case for uh why we need to become more present. Now, can we talk about some practical ways to shift to the upstairs brain? You mentioned breath work, Mark, and I know you do a lot with this. Help those of our listeners who have never really had the opportunity to do any breath work, or hey, I just want to understand what what's the bridge? Like what do I do to get myself to slow down?

Mark Ostach 19:15

There's a uh there's uh it's called conscious breathing, and there's four objects that you model the star breath, the balloon breath, the faucet breath, and the pretzel breath. And I know this is an audio only uh podcast, but if you can picture standing up and putting your arms out like a star when you breathe in your nose, you lift your hands up, hold your breath, and you breathe out of your mouth, and you kind of look like a big starfish, or like you're doing a big snow angel. And then um the balloon, you know, you make a balloon and you lift your hands up, and so on and so forth for the for the faucet and the pretzel. And really what you're doing is you're combining movement with breath to get blood

Hope Through Goals And Minimal Tech

Mark Ostach 19:59

flowing, to get yourself away from kind of the screen fatigue. Um, and you're you're intentionally breathing deeply, which brings oxygen, you know, to your heart and your brain, and then gives you an opportunity to at least start to climb up the stairs of your of your uh towards your upstairs brain. You might not get there, you might need a snack or you know, something else that kind of draws you in there. But I really think that breath is a tactical way. Movement, we talked about walking on on the last podcast. Uh walking, I think, is uh is one of the most under um utilized resources that we have at our disposal. I think if more people could walk outside, uh the world would be a better place. Um so those are like two very practical ways. Um and then I shift into a framework called the GIFs model, and it stands for grace, influence, focus, trust, and sensitivity. And these are really uh less tactical ways, but more virtues that we can embody that allow us to better connect with people that we work with and do life with. Um, and as a result of those living those virtues, you're more prone to presence. Why don't you pick one of those and I'll t I'll share with you how you can model that.

Hannah Best 21:19

I'd love to hear more about Grace.

Mark Ostach 21:22

Grace. My daughter was in kindergarten a couple years ago and she woke up so excited to go to school. Uh, she got up 45 minutes early and she came downstairs with her ponytail tied and her backpack packed. She was ready. I said, Mila, what are you doing? School doesn't start for an hour. She said, Dad, I get to be the line leader today. And I said, Mila, what does the line leader get to do? And she looked at me and she says, Dad, I get to lead the line. And I said, Okay, I I'm w I'm picking up what you're putting down. And I said, Mila, what are the other responsibilities of the line leader today? And she poured some Cheerios, she took a bite, she looked at me squarely. In the eyes, and she said, Dad, I don't have enough time to tell you all of the responsibilities. And I laughed. I took her to school along with her brother, dropped her off. Later on that afternoon, my wife and I got an email that says, Line leader in the subject line. And I felt, oh my gosh, she blew her only assignment. She's not graduating kindergarten. And the teacher went on to read, Dear Mr. and Mrs. Ostash, Mila was a line leader today. And one of the uh things a line leader has to do is to pray before they eat snacks. And my daughter has a little lazy eye that's being healed, and she's kind of shy, so she went to bow her hand or bow her head and fold her hands and attempted to say God our father, but instead said, Avocado. And she was so embarrassed, you guys. It sounds like, you know, God our father, avocado. Yes. She was just you know, tongue tongue-tied. And the teacher said, Mila, try again, dear. And she went on to pray for her classmates. And that story is such a great uh example of modeling grace, in this case to Mila to pray again. And I think sometimes, like, we don't even extend grace on those little things. You know, the email that we send that didn't

Breathwork And Walking Practices

Mark Ostach 23:17

have that sentence that it should have to let you know that you actually care about the person you're asking for more of their time on the weekend with.

Sara Best 23:23

Yeah.

Mark Ostach 23:24

Or the boss that comes in on a Monday morning and says, you know what, I was a total boss hole on Friday.

Sara Best 23:29

Right.

Mark Ostach 23:30

And I don't even know what was wrong with me. I was like, I was marinating in my downstairs brain. Uh with humility, right, and grace. So that that's that's a for instance.

Sara Best 23:42

This is gonna be a gift to our listeners. Your your newest book uh coming in September, is that right?

Mark Ostach 23:48

Yep, September 9th.

Sara Best 23:50

We will make sure to link. Is there an opportunity for our listeners to pre-order?

Mark Ostach 23:55

Yeah, you can pre-order now. We're gonna do a big launch in September. And um, yeah, there's some great names behind it. John Acuff is a is a brilliant uh speaker and author. He's uh wrote a uh glowing recommendation along with John Gordon to what I'd call like uh folks in the business world that are are really doing some amazing work. So I'm hoping to just um use this book as an avenue to advance the mission to keep us more connected and unified as a society and to bring us into real life more, and also to make you smile and relate and laugh and say, hey, that's me, or I need to send this chapter to my spouse, or my co-worker could definitely benefit from this reflection question at the end of each chapter. Like that's the heartbeat of the book.

Sara Best 24:40

And Mark, this is your third book, correct?

Mark Ostach 24:42

It is.

Sara Best 24:42

Yeah, this is exciting. Before we let you go today, you know, uh you do incredible writing as well. And if people have the opportunity, they need to sign up to receive your blog. Your posts are just always so simple, yet deep and powerful. And one really struck me recently, it has to do with courage and vulnerability. I think the title of the writing was The Day A hundred Amazon Packages Showed Up at My Door, something like that. Yes. But in it, you you talk about an experience. Um, one of the other works that you created, and you mentioned this a few moments ago, walking, you know, walking as a means uh to find your way to the upstairs brain. You created a beautiful journal. I have several of them sitting on my shelf over there. I give them as gifts. Walk forward, it's the walk forward journal. Transform your life with um, you know, it's a guide to emotional intelligence and spiritual growth. But there's a story around uh that journal. And what really struck me in that writing was how you talked about your experience of, you know, having taken several steps back or feeling, you know, the the the disappointment of several steps back. And I know that's a common experience, uh, especially in this ambient change world, these turbulent times.

Mark Ostach 26:02

Yeah.

Sara Best 26:03

I really feel like leaders who may not be aware that they're stuck in their downstairs brain are stuck because they are being hard on themselves or they're not accepting of their own humanity, there's no grace being provided.

Mark Ostach 26:17

Yeah.

Sara Best 26:17

Would you be willing to just give your account

Grace And The Avocado Prayer

Sara Best 26:21

of that experience? Because what you said in that post was about walking forward, which is the point of the journal and and the power and the courage it takes to do that.

Mark Ostach 26:32

Beautiful setup, Sarah. And for those that tuned into the subject line, the day a hundred packages came to my door. Yeah. The uh short end is that my wife and I launched a journal called the Walk Forward Journal. We ordered 2,000 copies, we sold about 500 to friends and family, and then we had the other kind of 1,500 shipped to Amazon in hopes to become uh more readily available to sell on Amazon. Well, our Amazon efforts uh fell by the wayside because we weren't really experienced selling on Amazon. And as a result, uh we weren't selling many journals at all, maybe a couple dozen. And this led us to uh begin to wonder, is this project a failure? And I thought, well, you know what, maybe it's just not an Amazon thing. I'll get them shipped back to us so that way we can sell them at events and gatherings, which is more of the organic way that I've built my business. So with a few clicks of a button, I logged into my Amazon account, and I thought 1500 journals will be sent back to me on kind of a palette in which they were originally sent out. Uh, but instead, I got uh over two weeks' times hundreds of packages sent back and individual wrappers, as if I just won the Amazon box lottery. And the worst part of it was we went on a vacation, we came back, and our porch, our closet, our garage was full of these pesky little packages, reminding me as I opened each one at a time, just how far off my aspirations for this journal's uh success had gone. Yes. And uh after my son helped me put him away for a small fee of ten dollars, he laid across the layer that the the rows of uh my son's 11, he's like five foot three, his entire body rested comfortably on rows of walk forward journals. Um, but aside from the you know, the the logistics of the moment, there was a moment of humility where I thought, all right, you know, God, you put this desire in my heart, we followed through on it, we took massive action just to get it off the ground. Um, I'm proud of it, but I also am okay if it it's uh it's got a different story than I made up in my mind on how it was gonna go. And I think that's the lesson, Sarah and Hannah. It's like, how often do we um think it's gonna go one way and it goes another way? And then the perceived um, you know, rerouting looks like failure, but I think it's actually not. I think it's really just progress in a new direction.

Sara Best 29:06

That's what struck me when I read your post that day. Uh you said maybe those steps back aren't backward at all. Maybe they're building something deeper, patience, perspective, and trust. And I thought, wow, talk about the upstairs brain, talk about having the courage to pull yourself, and and for each of us to be able to do this, to come to presence, to come out of the basement brain and recognize all is working for the good. And it may be inconvenient, it may be taxing and and difficult and challenging. Um, but I know you believe in the principles of trust and faith. Yes. And you put yourself squarely back there in the upstairs brain. Yes. And what a great model for your son who the picture of him laying across the mouth of the books is incredible. I'll make sure we link to that little in the show notes.

Mark Ostach 29:57

And I told my wife, I said, I'm prepared when, you know, because it is a faith-based um uh book. Uh uh, I'm I'm just waiting for a church in Ohio to call or Michigan to say,

The Amazon Boxes Humility Story

Mark Ostach 30:08

hey, we have a marriage conference and we want somebody to talk about spiritual formation and emotional maturity. Do you have 500 copies of that walk forward journal? Well, as a matter of fact, I do, you know.

Sara Best 30:20

We'll drive them to you.

Mark Ostach 30:21

Yeah, exactly. For a low, low price.

Sara Best 30:24

Yeah. Wow, Mark. As always, uh, you never disappoint. You just have such real important things to say.

Mark Ostach 30:32

Well, thank you, Sarah. Hannah, it was a pleasure to meet you. You've got a wonderful mom. I can't wait to see what you do in your career. And uh who knows, maybe when the book launches, uh, I'll come back. But yeah, people can get the pre-order now. Good. Connection. I'm super excited about it. And uh uh we'll be back soon to talk more.

Sara Best 30:49

I love this. And to our listeners, make sure you think about Mark to speak at your next conference, your next all-company event. He does phenomenal work. He coaches. There's a way to engage him, so we'll make sure that we provide the link to his website. Mark, blessings to you and your family. Um, I can't wait to see you soon. Thank you.

Hannah Best 31:11

Thank you so much, Mark, and we'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles.

Announcer 31:19

Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.