An Ode to Robal

Nobody tells you the hardest part of becoming a manager: the job changes overnight, but your skill set doesn’t. I rewind to the early 1990s, when I stepped out of individual contributor sales and into leading sales and marketing with almost no real mentoring. I was frustrated, second-guessing myself, and running into old-school management habits that looked normal on paper but felt wrong in practice. That’s what sent me searching for real management training and a better way to lead.

HERE ARE MORE RESOURCES FROM REAL GOOD VENTURES:

Never miss a good opportunity to learn from a bad boss...

Click HERE to get your very own Reference Profile.  We use The Predictive Index as our analytics platform so you know it's validated and reliable.  Your Reference Profile informs you of your needs, behaviors, and the nuances of what we call your Behavioral DNA.  It also explains your work style, your strengths, and even the common traps in which you may find yourself.  It's a great tool to share with friends, family, and co-workers.

Follow us on Instagram HERE and make sure to share with your network!

Follow us on X HERE and make sure to share with your network!

Provide your feedback HERE, please!  We love to hear from our listeners and welcome your thoughts and ideas about how to improve the podcast and even suggest topics and ideas for future episodes.

Visit us at www.realgoodventures.com.  We are a Talent Optimization consultancy specializing in people and business execution analytics.  Real Good Ventures was founded by Sara Best and John Broer who are both Certified Talent Optimization Consultants with over 50 years of combined consulting and organizational performance experience.  Sara is also certified in EQi 2.0.  RGV is also a Certified Partner of Line-of-Sight, a powerful organizational health and execution platform.  RGV is known for its work in leadership development, executive coaching, and what we call organizational rebuild where we bring all our tools together to diagnose an organization's present state and how to grow toward a stronger future state. 

Transcript

Welcome And A Different Format

John Broer 0:12

A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer. And this week's episode is a little different. Just like the one a few weeks ago when I shared some letters from Fred Bosshole Zero. If you listened to that one, go back and listen to it. This is actually, these are letters notes I found from a manager that I had that was the inspiration for one of our very first, actually our inaugural episode of The Boss hole Chronicles. So I am having flashbacks lately, and I was taken back to the early 1990s when I realized I needed some training as a manager. I wasn't getting the kind of training I needed or mentoring from my boss. And so I went to a workshop and the workshop facilitator, his name was Robal Johnson. Robal R-O-B-A-L. Robal is from Chicago. I'm going to tell you that story because what I learned from Robal were some of the foundational principles that I hold dearly today and have shaped the way I not only approach management and developing other people, but also how I coach and support our clients at Real Good Ventures. So you are going to get a chance to learn more about a very special individual, Robal Johnson. Let's jump in. Enjoy today's episode.

From Top Seller To Struggling Manager

John Broer 2:07

So obviously, as part of The Boss hole Chronicles, the stories that we share, and the stories that I share, that Sarah shares, you've heard from Karen and all kinds of different, and so many of our guests on The Boss hole Chronicles, obviously, we are sharing stories from our past that have influenced the way we are today. And I'm going to go back to what was a really transformational time for me as it relates to becoming a better manager. So if you've been listening to The Boss hole Chronicles for any time, you know that in my background, I was in sales, industrial chemicals, and I was an individual contributor, had an opportunity to go open a brand new territory for the organization, had real success, top sales numbers. I was in a position to sell some new products, which was a lot of fun. And Fred, whom you have met, he was my manager. And I eventually took Fred's job. And as I have always said, Fred was a very nice gentleman. He would have been an amazing neighbor. He just was a very ineffective manager. And so I moved in to run sales and marketing for this company. And in doing so, I I didn't know what I didn't know. Honestly, I was a classic example of taking an individual contributor and putting them into a management role with absolutely no guidance. Now, my manager was a very nice man, founder of the company. But as I've shared, there were some very what I would say are old and outdated practices when it came to managing other people. It was an old mental map, an old framework. But this is what he was exposed to. This is how he came up through the ranks when he was a salesperson and then became a sales manager. And so I don't fault him for that. That was what he knew. But when I got into management, I realized, I mean, I was doing this job and I would come home and I was so frustrated because I didn't understand how to step into a management role and how different it was from being an individual contributor.

Finding Management Training That Fits

John Broer 4:20

I don't know exactly how I was introduced to this workshop, but many of you have heard of the American Management Association. They're based in New York. I think they're still down on uh down in Times Square on Broadway. That's where their world headquarters are. But they they're they've got offices and training centers around the world. Well, I I'm pretty sure I got a catalog of these different workshops. And as I was leafing through it, I was looking into the sales management section and I saw one that said fundamentals for the newly appointed manager. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is for me. I was going to go to Chicago to their training center there. It was the um, it's no longer there. It was uh their training center, I believe, is in downtown Chicago now, but this one was out by O'Hare and it was attached to the Marriott O'Hare. So it was super easy. I could fly, take a direct flight from Toledo, get over to Chicago, go to the workshop. Now it was a three-day workshop, and I got approval for it. I went to my manager and I said, look, I think this would be very beneficial just to go learn from subject matter experts and be with other new managers. And I think there were about 30 or 40 of us in this particular workshop. At that time, AMA workshops, you know, were pretty robust with a lot of people. And so I got approval for it and I went to Chicago. And I realize I'm reminiscing a little bit here, but it was really I was really excited about it. I was excited about hearing about management from a new voice, somebody different, somebody that obviously had great credentials and a long history of doing it, and now they were facilitating these workshops for AMA. And I was going to be with other people who were probably experiencing the same thing I was as a newly appointed manager. So I get there and arrive, you know, in the morning. I think everybody got there about 8:30, walked in the room, and it's really cool. It was sort of a sort of an auditorium setting. There were team tables set up, and so you could go in, sit down, and there was just a great opportunity for

Meeting Robal Johnson In Chicago

John Broer 6:32

interaction. But I walked in the room and there was this man standing there. He was tall, had salt and pepper hair. He had a really full head of hair. I don't know why that stands out, but his mustache looked just like his, you know, his head of hair. I mean, not to be weird, but it was like big smile, suit and tie, I mean dressed to the nines, very distinguished gentleman. And I walked in, I went up and uh shook his hand, and I said, Hi, my name is John Broer. And his and he said, I'm Robal, Robal Johnson. And I thought, wow, that's a really interesting name. And he would simply say, think of the word labor spelled backwards. I don't know why, but that was a simple way to remember it. But Robal was from Chicago. And so I want to call out to anybody out there in that time period, so it would have been the late 80s, 90s, 2000s. If you went to the American Management Association's training center uh at the Marriott O'Hare, drop me a line or drop something in the comments. And if you ever knew or worked with or were trained by Robal Johnson, we are kindred spirits because you probably experienced the same thing that I did. And so what I remember is everybody gathered. Robal was just very cordial, polite, you know, welcoming everybody in. And we sat down. And what I recall now is just there was a real hunger in the room to learn. And what took place over the next three days, what I felt was one of the most unique and refreshing workshops I've ever been to because it was highly interactive. And while Robal honored the agenda and the materials that were provided, what we really got from him were his experiences, these, you know, the anecdotes, the experiences, the actual occurrences in his life as a manager. I mean, he had an impressive briefcase, great track record, and he would draw on all of this experience. And I will tell you to this day, three things that I remember very specifically from working with him in that workshop just are are principles that I apply today because they made so much sense. And I'll tell you what, from the moment it started, my eyes were opened up. And what I realized is there is an entire world of management practices and consultative managing and leadership principles to which I was never exposed. I mean, the world just opened up for me in terms of people development, and I thought this, this is what I've been looking for. So I'll share three of the key principles that I learned over those three days, and there were a lot more, but there were three that really stand out.

Four Principles For Better Management

John Broer 9:25

And this was one thing that he said early on, and he said this management is not a popularity contest. If you got into management to be liked and loved by your direct reports, that's a big mistake. You know, you are going to be miserable for your entire career. Management is not a popularity contest. What you should hope for is that your direct reports will find you reliable and trustworthy and credible. You are a person of integrity. But if you're trying to be buddies with your direct reports, you're gonna crash and burn. And I'd never heard that before. Now it made total sense to me, and I wasn't trying to be friends with my direct reports, but I ended up managing people that were my former peers. And so a few of them, we did have, you know, friendships. And this was one of the things he said. You have to be as objective about something as subjective as a friendship if you are managing former peers. And he was absolutely right. And it was like, it's not being cold-hearted, but it it again, if if you want to be popular, go into politics. But management, that's not your objective. So that was number one. I thought that that was awesome. Number two, may sound a little harsh, but it's absolutely true. He would say you need to fire poor performers quickly. I mean, after you have given them a sufficient opportunity to grow, develop, course correct, whatever it may be, but if they're not the right person for the job, then you need to cut them loose. You need to make them available for an opportunity that is better suited for them. But he said all too often managers wait way too long to make that change. Now, today, I mean, I I still agree with that, but we now have far deeper analytics and objective data to be able to, well, first of all, avoid that when you're hiring and optimizing job fit. But, you know, sometimes you get somebody in a role and they're just not right. You put them in a role for which they're not suited. Well, we have the technology to be able to refit them and help optimize them in your organization. But then again, you're going to have people that just are not a solid fit. And it's just cruel to hold on to them because you think you're doing them a favor when in reality you're hurting the organization, you're hurting yourself, and you're hurting them. So that was another one. It was like, wow, that's that makes so much sense. Now, one of the other ones he talked about was the distinction between leadership and management. And this was one he had a it was just like a little assessment, something he created himself, and it was on a scale. And it talked about your preferences in terms of how you approach things, how you approach people. And based on those preferences, one leaning to a side would or one side would indicate that perhaps you were leaning more toward leadership or influence, whereas the other one would suggest that perhaps you have more of a focus or an interest in managing things. His point, which I think is absolutely true, is that management is a position of authority over other people and process. Leadership is a position of influence with other people. And for many of those, while you have influence, you may not have you may not have authority. They may not report to you. And he said, wouldn't it be great if you could be in your management position, you are also a person of positive influence to your people and your organization. And I thought, yes, that's absolutely true, because there are a lot of managers out there that are not effective leaders, and there are great leaders out there that have no interest in managing other people, but they have great influence on the people around them. And I'm going to give you a fourth one. I thought this one was great. Actually, I'm so glad I thought about this one because to this day resonates with me. And I remember what he did is he was on, he took a flip chart. And by the way, he loved jotting. We were all writing stuff on flip charts and putting them up on the wall. I mean, it was very, you know, experiential. We were very much engaged. It wasn't a lecture. This was a dialogue, and we were working through all of these different principles. But I remember he put three, they were like three spheres. Well, they weren't spheres, they were like ovals, flat ovals, and the middle one was management. The top one was executive, and the bottom one was direct reports. And what he said is he said, You're here, you're right in the middle. You're in this really unique and unusual position where you will hear things from the top. You will be privy to perhaps sensitive or proprietary information that has no business going to the front line and going to your direct reports. All right. He said, You will be, they will try to press you to get information and said, hey, come on, John, you know, let us know what's going on. Well, you know, you can trust me with this information. He said, you have to exercise more discretion now because you're in a position of responsibility. And information will be shared with you that should not be passed down. And you need to make that decision. You need to think very carefully about that, and also toe the line and say, no, I mean, I mean, I'll tell you what I am able to share with you, but there's some things obviously I can't share with you. And it works in reverse as well. For example, your people, your direct reports, the people on the front line, they're going to communicate things to you that perhaps at the time are just them getting things off their chest, just observations. There are certain things that need to reside just within that dynamic and have no business going up to the executive level. To me, he said, so you, in your management position, you are in a unique position to filter information in both directions. And you have to be careful about this because you you don't want to get your own people in trouble unnecessarily. That information from them can help shape the way you try to steer things or shepherd things for the organization. And then conversely, there are things you're going to hear from the executive level that would freak people out on the front lines. And there may be a better time or a better way that that gets communicated, or it gets communicated by somebody else. And just sitting here right now sharing this with you, those are four things that I have pulled through over all these years that were established in those three days in Chicago working with Robal Johnson.

A Mentor Who Opened New Doors

John Broer 16:09

Now, this is something that's really cool. I mean, during the workshop, I actually told Robal that, you know, before I took this management position, I actually started on the side a consulting gig where I was helping people develop their presentation skills. When we were living uh in another state, you know, my sales were doing great, but I had always had this desire to start doing some consulting work. And it was a very, it was a little sideline where I would help business people develop their presentation skills. That was my first foray into consulting work. So it was just a side gig. And it was successful. I mean, I had more and more people asking me to do it, and it was like, of course I can't because I have a real job and I don't want to compromise that. Then I got promoted into management, and that all that all shut down, obviously. But I told him about this and he said, hey, John, he goes, I would like you to come back to Chicago. I've got another workshop next month. How about if you come back and I'd like you just to take an hour and have a guest spot with my next workshop of new managers and help them understand how critical it is to have effective presentation skills. And I mean, my eyes were like wide open, and it was like, yes, I'd be, I'd love to do that. I'd be happy to do that. And I went back and I did. And here's the thing about Robal. I mean, at the time, I think he was probably in his 60s. Uh sadly, Robal passed away in 2015, I think. But, you know, I just can see him like it was yesterday, that smile, that salt and pepper hair and bushy mustache, and he loved tennis. He played tennis. I mean, he would talk about his family all the time. He made great recommendations for restaurants in Chicago. But for this moment in time during my career, I had a connection with a wonderful mentor. I consider him a mentor. So it was a few years later that I actually broke away from the company and started my own business, my own consulting practice, my very first consulting practice. And he recommended me as a course leader and faculty member for the American Management Association. And then for the next 10 years, not only did I deliver sales and sales management and negotiating workshops, I actually had the opportunity to uh develop some workshops for AMA, which was a lot of fun. But here was a gentleman who was generous in spirit, exceedingly experienced in what I would consider to be more advanced management practices than most people were doing at the time. You know, when we talk about, you know, staying out of the Bosshole zone, he was he was helping people stay out of the bosshole zone 25, 30 years ago. And the other thing that I always really enjoyed about my relationship with Robal was that I always felt that he approached things from a position of abundance rather than scarcity, and he shared his resources and his insights the very same way. I mean, really, really a generous, generous person. So I wanted you to meet, air quotes, Robal Johnson, because I would hate for all of this content that we're able to share with you on The Boss hole Chronicles without understanding part of its origin and a very significant part of it as well. That this gentleman opened my eyes and you know, thousands and thousands of other people opened our eyes to what management should be and what it could be. And hopefully we are passing on and continuing his legacy of best practices and helping managers stay out of the bosshole zone. Oh man, you know what? He would have been a great guest on the podcast. I, oh my gosh, I just I I it would have been so fun. We would have probably had to do that episode in three or four parts because we would just talk forever and um and his stories were just great. But I thank you for this, everybody, uh, for letting me go again reminisce a little bit about an individual that had a profound impact on how I, on my course correction in becoming a better manager, because I was I was in trouble. I was because I was ineffective, I can assure you. I didn't know what I didn't know. And while

Gratitude, Legacy, And Closing Invite

John Broer 20:29

I I worked to have a great rapport with my team, I just didn't have the best practices and insights that I needed. And like I said, those three days in Chicago helped to set them in place, and I've been working on them ever since. So thanks everybody. I really appreciate this walk down memory lane. I've had a couple of them here in the last few weeks, but these are the things that help to shape who we are. Remember how we talk about head heart, briefcase, and baggage? Not all baggage is bad. This is good baggage. This is baggage that I've carried with me for years that has helped to shape who I am as a professional, and I hope to be able to pass that along. But I want to thank Robal and your kindness and your generosity and the impact that you've had on me and the impact you've had indirectly to the Boss Hole Transformation Nation. So thanks everybody for listening. Keep checking in for more episodes, and we will see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the bossholechronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.