Jenn Whitmer - Joyosity

Joy gets treated like a perk, a vibe, or a distraction from “real work.” We don’t buy that, and Jenn Whitmer doesn’t either. Joy, the way she teaches it, is a leadership discipline and it’s the fuel that makes healthy performance possible when the world feels unstable and your calendar is packed.

• Click HERE to visit Jenn's website
• Click HERE for the Joyosity podcast
• Click HERE to order Jenn's book Joyosity

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Transcript

Why Joy Matters Right Now

Sara Best 0:06

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Boss hole Chronicles. This is Sara Best, your co-host. Today's a fun and interesting episode. Many of you, many of us, probably all of us, we're navigating AI disruption, economic uncertainty, political division, constant change. It's an interesting time to be alive on this planet. The idea today is that joy is available even when circumstances are ideal. And we would argue that human flourishing is not separate from organizational performance. It's actually the foundation of it. Our subject matter expert today is Jenn Whitmer, who's written a great book called Joyosity, How to Cultivate Intense Happiness and Work in Life. And by the way, if you're one of those people that's like, oh joy, you know, that's all soft stuff, like I'm just gonna not listen to this episode. Stay tuned, because there's a science to this, and we've known about it for decades. But if communicated today in simple and straightforward terms, I think you'll enjoy it. Let's take a listen.

Announcer 1:15

The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.

Sara Best 1:38

Jenn Whitmer, welcome. It's so good to have you on the podcast today.

Jenn Whitmer 1:42

Great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm thrilled to have this conversation.

Sara Best 1:46

I think your work is really special and different. A post that you made on LinkedIn is what grabbed my attention, and I reached out to you some time ago. I'm grateful that you would, you know, share your expertise with us today. Help us understand what is in your award-winning book. Like last time I checked, it was seven or eight awards. I know. I keep like, ah, yeah. Yes. The book, by the way, great listeners, is called Joyosity, How to Cultivate Intense Happiness and Work and Life,

Meet Jen Whitmer And Joyosity

Sara Best 2:15

even if things are what they are. I love that part.

Jenn Whitmer 2:19

I mean, nothing like uh me, Jenn Whitmer, who's been extra since the mid-70s, to have a sub-subtitle.

Sara Best 2:26

Is that a seven thing? I wonder. I gotta ask.

Jenn Whitmer 2:29

I think probably, yes.

Sara Best 2:31

I would by the way, uh listeners, we're talking about any RAM types, which we may or may not get into in a little bit more detail. Uh, but Jenn, if you would start by telling us the real story behind your book, the story behind the story, as we like to say, because this is lived experience that prompted you to research and find a way to express this powerful stuff.

Jenn Whitmer 2:52

Well, I didn't know it, but that my journey to joy at work and this book and Joyosity began when I was sitting on a white couch in my boss's office, and he said, I'm eliminating your position. And I was not shocked because of the lead up to that, but also just kind of head in hands, like it didn't have to be this way. This is not the way this needed to go. And I was an assistant head of school, I was leading, um, I was the director of assessment and feedback and uh working with teachers and students around how do we assess where students are, make sure they're learning, and then also how do we give appropriate feedback around those areas. And so I was doing uh report cards and test grades and parent-teacher conferences and standardized testing, you know, everyone's favorite. Yes. And twitching over here. I know everybody has that response. And a few years before, I had done a lot of work around that idea because of that twitching. I was like, well, when I first got brought on with a different leader, I was like, well, what if we started with a different question? Rather than how do we get better test results? Why are our test results not accurate? And then I was like, well, what if we even started with a completely different idea? What if testing could be joyful? Which is a totally unrelated concept, and that's not typically how educators think. And I got that idea because my office backed up to the playground and I could always hear kids laughing and singing and you know, kickball and foursquare and bubbles, you know, all the things outside. And I was like, what if we could make testing feel like that? Because that is such a key part of a kid's day. Yeah. And digging into child development, what do we know about how kids learn? How do they demonstrate learning? And so I did a bunch of things around that, got everybody on board to change the way we were doing

The Story Behind The Book

Jenn Whitmer 4:50

testing and sent home balls and bubbles and did fun things with kids and changed it to January, changed their schedule so it was less stressful. It wasn't so many in a day, and just made it about a game. We're like, this is a game that, you know, it's a game to see what we can, what we can show. It's fun, and just lowering the stress level and really focusing on what could this look like if it were a joyful experience. And that turned into us wildly outperforming what we had done in the past and doing the top 25% or earning the top 25 percentile around the world because we gave a global assessment. Yes. Then a couple of years later, earning a blue ribbon award for our school, which is the highest academic honor. And it's only awarded to 50 private schools a year. So we had demonstrated, and the blue ribbon was like this big stamp of approval that came later. We already knew it was working because the blue ribbon is based on test scores and culture. So we created this idea that not only could we make it joyful, it actually produced better results. And that is where I didn't know that that's what I was doing because I was still focused on education. And then a couple of years later, when I my position was eliminated and I basically got fired, my curiosity was like, how did we get here? Because we were experiencing all of this amazing goodness, you know, productivity and amazing culture and community, and kids were doing well, and all of that was so phenomenal. We didn't have retention issues. And what happened? How did we get here? And that's what sent me into the research and the study. And how did we have such amazing performance? And then what happened to get to this place where we had turned into a toxic culture. We had turned into a place where there was such dysfunction that it started to impact teachers and students. And what happened? And that is where that lived experience started to play into what I wanted to understand because again, that curiosity. And and I also thought that was a singular experience. Like I thought, oh, this is unique to Jenn Whitmer and this school in this place. And when I left education, because it was so scary, because that's an identity job. It's the only job I'd ever dreamed of. And I had started talking to corporate people, I started consulting, and I was like, oh, this change of leadership, change of focus into dysfunction, abuse, toxicity, that train, that track is so common. Yeah. That, and we're all just like accepting it. So obviously that was over years of time of learning that before I started writing Joyosity, but I'd been working with organizations, I'd been working with individuals who are leaders, I'd been, I've been keynote speaking for years before I started writing the book and testing out these ideas and seeing what worked, what moved the needle, as you know, people love to say, what actually produced change in people's businesses and in their organizations. And that's how I started. And then really digging into, well, what actually works? So what does the research say is gonna work? What, what works in, you know, the Tuesday morning, 10 o'clock meeting? Like how does it actually work then? Right. Or at 3 p.m. on a Friday when, you know, your kids' school's calling because you forgot to pick up or whatever. Like, how does it work in that real life situation? And that's where my coaching and consulting came from and speaking and then the book.

Sara Best 8:32

As I was reading the book and reading about your book, uh, I came across this statement: Joyosity is not a book about happiness as a feeling, it's about joy as a leadership discipline. And it's not a reward of good leadership, it's the fuel. So joy would be the fuel that makes good leadership possible. And I just want to pause for a minute and say, gosh, for any of our listeners who are like, oh, she's talking about a school. Those are kids, you know, those are kids and teachers. No, I I think what we need to stand up and notice and pay attention to is this follows exactly along uh with what happens inside organizations. And Jenn, in our world, you know, we talk about boss hole intervention and prevention that we believe not everyone was born to be a boss hole and that people don't really intend to suck the joy out of work or to make things difficult or to sit someone across from them on a white couch and go, you're done. Like we we know there's a better way. We want to help give people that better way. So would you tell these listeners what joy really is? Like in your studies and what you're proposing here, was it and was it not?

Jenn Whitmer 9:40

Yeah. I love this question because joy is not balloons and cotton candy and rainbows and unicorns. That that is not what it is. And while I do love bubbles and confetti, that is not joy to everybody else.

Sara Best 9:54

Right.

Jenn Whitmer 9:54

Uh and the image of joy that I, when I've worked with Chick-fil-A, when I've worked with Wells Fargo, the Mayo Clinic, this is the image I always want to put in people's heads. It is an image of lavender, not balloons and cotton candy. And lavender is deeply rooted. It grows best in like hilly, rocky soil with like this bite of acid in it. And it's a little wild. It's it's not super containable, but it is, it is extremely drought resistant. When other plants are gasping and dying, lavender is still thriving in its place. Cotton candy melts on your tongue, it's gone, balloons float away. Lavender is really rooted. So that is the visual image of joy. And the three signals that you are experiencing joy, one, you feel favored or fortunate. Like, I can't believe I get to do this part of my job. Like this part of my life, my job. Do people know? Like, there's almost like I don't have a kill to it. It's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I get to this. This is like my favorite thing. So that's one thing. You feel lucky to get to do it. And the second signal is that you have a sense of belonging and connection when you are doing that work. Whatever that is, you are connected to a group and you know that you belong by just being and doing the work that you're doing. And then the third signal is that it is connected to a purpose that is positively impacting something that is bigger than you. It is beyond you. It's not just this is for me. Joy is not selfish, but it is incredibly individual in the sense that I have to know what brings me joy that is different than what brings you joy. I we like to joke in my house: if it's a spreadsheet, I don't, I don't want to do that. That's pain, it's pain, not joy. Yeah. Uh and my daughter, my third child, loves a spreadsheet. Like she has templates for spreadsheets, she gives her friends. Uh, she is a junior in college, and like it is, she could sell these things to people. Like she loves, she's like, oh, this calls for a spreadsheet. And like, oh my gosh. You know, so joy is incredibly individual.

Sara Best 12:08

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 12:09

But what you are doing with that work, I like to joke about the spreadsheet, but for Sabrina, that brings a sense of organization that means that she can support herself and other people in her work. She's the president of a couple clubs and it makes sure the communication is clear. It helps them do their mission. Like all of those things are tied to this one little thing that she loves to do. Right. As a simple, simple example of your work. Some people really love when I was working in a school, uh, when I was an educator and a music teacher, my TA loved making bulletin boards. Yeah. Loved it. It was like her favorite thing. And that was for her her great thing. Some people love organizing the social router. So there's coffee in the break room that people like. Some people really want to dig into like, well, how can we make this chart communicate in the meeting exactly what it's trying to say? So we don't have to just have a pile of numbers. So they they're really interested in these in these little tiny things, plus much bigger aspects of our life. But it's always something that is you're excited about, you are interested in it, you feel like you belong when you're doing it, and you have this sense of purpose. Jade Simmons says that purpose isn't what you do, it's what happens in other people when you do what you do. And that's part of joy. So that's what joy really is. So when we start to apply that to our work, it produces you are three and a half times more likely to help other people. You have a 25% increase in group performance if one person on the team has joy.

Sara Best 13:46

Right.

Jenn Whitmer 13:46

You have a 31% increase in productivity. So all of these things are the stuff that we talk about all the time. We want high engagement, we want retention, we want creativity, we want productivity, we want innovation. All of those are lagging indicators of actually experiencing joy.

Sara Best 14:04

And this makes me um, I'm gonna like, we're gonna have to edit this part out. I just want to go back to what well, you know what, Jenn? What I wanna hearken over to is the idea that while there's purpose and energy, there's also um like a critical nature. We we have to find our joy. We could probably talk for a while about how people have been disconnected, like what has caused them to become disconnected from their joy. And maybe we should for a minute. I don't know, I'll leave that to you. But you speak about, you know, people are dying out there at work. And we often say, you know, in our work, we we're we're hoping to save lives. Can you speak to that for a moment about the serious side of why we need joy?

Jenn Whitmer 14:50

Absolutely. So if you think about all these good things that joy produces, the opposite of joy isn't work. The opposite of joy is toil. And toil is work that feels meaningless, you're not skilled at, you don't have the resource for, it's unclear, uh, it's boring. All of that produces toil. Toil's never going away. There's always going to be parts of our job that we don't like.

Sara Best 15:13

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 15:14

And there's always gonna be things that we have to do to make life work that are not our favorite things. So I this is not a toxic positivity situation here. Uh as a former toxic positivity dealer, the the toil is going to exist. Yeah. But what we want to do is keep that into what I call toil's tiny 10. So toil's tiny 10 is we're keeping 10% of our time and toil limited to that 10%. And we want 35% of our time spent in that, though, with those three signals of joy, which, if you're doing the math, like that's 55% in the middle. And that's what I just call the messy middle. And that is where if we're not careful, if we're not communicating clearly, if we're not um having clear role definition, if we don't have uh expectations that are clear, if we don't know how to manage our own selves in emotional regulation, in self-awareness, in conflict resolution, and making decisions, if we don't have clear structures and understand how we put life together, that messy middle becomes toil.

What Joy Really Is

Jenn Whitmer 16:20

And then that is what becomes abusive and toxic, which is why 80% of workers at the end of 25 said that they live in a toxic workplace environment. 80%. Wow. I mean, it's it's unimaginable in some ways that 80% of people are experiencing that. And then we have workplace-related anxiety is rampant. I mean, it is pervasive everywhere we go. And one of the biggest studies, it was from Zipia in 2023 that 120,000 people a year, we lose 120,000 people a year to work-related stress deaths. They die. So we're literally dying from lack of joy. And it's because we're out of whack in what I call the joy ratio. So that is the 35, 10, 55. And so that's why it's so important. It's why it matters so much when you talk about saving lives and we talk about I talk about reducing toil and bringing joy. It's yes, I want our workplaces to be productive and profitable, but I would really like people to stop dying because of this completely preventable way of living our lives.

Sara Best 17:31

I'm gonna make sure that we link in the show notes, Jenn, to episode 49 of your podcast, which is called Joyosity. We're literally dying without joy. So you expand on this quite a bit in that particular podcast. And you touched on something that I also think is really important. Um, joy and profit are friends, not enemies. Yes. And I know that I the touchy feely, the there's leaders out there who are going, we don't have time for joy. We've got work to do. Um you have an argument that says joy isn't a distraction from performance, it is a driver of performance. So profit, performance, anything else you want to say about those ideas?

Jenn Whitmer 18:10

Well, we have, depending on which studies you look at, between 60 and 30 years of data that show that this to be true in organizations around the country. So it's not just John Whitmer feels that way and I like things to be happy. That is not what I'm saying. There are research study after research study and tracking data that shows that when people put people in the center, and we put joy in the center, what we get are trusting cultures where there is a sense of belonging, where people feel seen, heard, appreciated, and valued. They are more productive because of all kinds of things. But then the productivity in our world is what produces profit. And the problem is we put profit in the center because oftentimes it is the voice in all of our heads, because this is the culture we live in. Yeah, we're here in business to make money, which I agree. I have a business. I I would like for you to pay me when I come to speak or if I'm coaching you. Yes, we have businesses and we need the money. But if we put money in the center, a few things happen. One, we make pretty terrible fear-based decisions. Number two, it's not sustaining. And it's like you can only work so hard for money for so long. You just can't maintain that. We as humans recognize that that's not enough. And it it's destroying to people if if we only think about profit in the center. And when I think about that, I think it sounds like greed. And I don't think that's who we are. I don't think that's who we want to be as people. Nobody wakes up like you're nobody wakes up and says, I want to be a terrible boss today. Nobody wakes up and says, you know what, I'm gonna be greedy today, and really mean it, not like isn't a joke. You know, like nobody wakes up thinking that because we recognize the damage it does to who we are as humans and our relationships and our communities. And we have the data that shows when we put this culture of joy and trust and belonging in the center, when we put people and purpose in the center, which is those components of joy, yeah, those businesses outperform the market about four times. You are more profitable when you do it that way. And we have all of this to show us that joy produces better results in our businesses.

Sara Best 20:34

Such a powerful argument. And of course, the next question I need to ask, and I'm sure some people are thinking this, even now, like we have AI disruption, economic uncertainty, extreme political division, constant change. I mean, this is a crazy freaking world we live in right now. Right. So even so, even when the conditions aren't ideal and not the way we want them to be, joy is still essential.

Jenn Whitmer 21:03

Joy, I mean, yeah, joy in this socioeconomic climate, you know, like what are you doing? What are you talking about? Right. Have you seen the gas prices? Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, I was like, well, I'm not buying gas there on my road trip between St. Louis and Nashville this week, because yes, it's crazy. Right. And actually, joy matters more. And that's why it is a ratio. So if you are not a math person, let's do it as a visual. So think about a pie graph. Everybody loves a piece of pie. And if you're trying to keep toil down to 10, you have the ability to change your joy. Sometimes you cannot control how much toil comes your way. Okay. You just can't. So recently my dad has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. That is going to increase the toil in my world. I cannot control that. I cannot control a random accident that comes my way. We cannot control the political forces, the AI just we can't control those things. We can control how we respond to them. And that is where learning the messy middle and what are the things that bring me joy? You are entitled to joy at work, according to Edward Deming, but work cannot be your sole joy. So because it can it can be a whole place of toil as well. So how do you arrange your life? If you can move that pie graph around, if you increase joy, that brings the toil smaller. Even though you, in a percentage, you can't change the actual physical amount that's coming your way. You can create more joy. Sometimes it's very small and sometimes it is big. And it's like if I keep doing this, this is what fuels me. Most of the time, it is incredibly tiny, small things that help you maintain through the difficult times. I had a client who their work, long story short, for 18 months was brutal, brutal. Like not sleeping. Every meeting was tense. It was all of the difficulty. They were promised one thing, that didn't happen. All of the gaslighting,

Toil The Joy Ratio And Health

Jenn Whitmer 23:10

all of the things that we know create a toxic workplace culture. And she was doing everything that she could do to maintain just like struggle. She couldn't get up in that idea of thriving and flourishing. She's just maintaining struggle. And it was these tiny little things. And I was talking to her, she's like, Well, I went on my stupid walk for my stupid mental health today, and I didn't want to go. I feel like you want to tell me something. She's like, Yeah. And so I was walking in my neighborhood and I'm annoyed and I'm walking it out. And I see this tree. And um, it's my favorite tree in the fall. It's not my favorite tree right now. It was like summer. And uh, and she's like, but I realize this tree changes with the seasons, but it always has to stay in the same place. I actually don't have to stay here. Like this has gotten so bad. I can change. I'm doing everything I can to manage the seasons.

Sara Best 24:06

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 24:07

But I can actually leave. Now I'm not saying everybody should leave their workplace. Sometimes that's not it. And even in the book, I tell about, I talk about how do you create change in your workplace in small, meaningful ways. But in this instance, what she realized later is she started looking for a new place. She ended up switching jobs, found a better place. I think if I remember right, she even took a pay cut because it mattered that much to her. But what she said afterwards that was so meaningful to me is she was like, all those little things that I did, I thought were stupid, that I did to maintain joy, to help me survive, were the only way that I didn't leave and be totally crushed in that experience. Wow. I thought they were foolish, but they were actually the means of my survival. And then the means of seeing how I could get out. If I wouldn't have been doing those things, I'm not sure what destruction would have come.

Sara Best 25:03

It is incredible. Like kind of like picking a penny up off the ground and you pick up, you pick up the pennies, you pick them up, and you don't realize, you know, how they gather and and the weight of and what they make available. I love that. And it's it's a really practical. I'm sure there are listeners who can relate to the struggle and and sustaining the struggle, but maybe just looking at today's little actions as ways um to put that, you know, cash in the bank, so to speak. Yeah. And and the scale does tip eventually, doesn't it? Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 25:35

And all of the research when we talk about when you look at productivity people, I joke about the productivity people who are naturally organized. That is not me. And so there's like, this is the one way to do it. And that's not what I teach. I'm like, here are all of these different practices. Yes. You need some of them, and you need some of them at different times. It's a menu. And then you start to build the structures that help sustain you. And they're almost always very small things that you pile on top of each other. And that creates the stability. You work with your body, with your emotions, with your mind, with your personality, the things that bring you joy, that is how you you do it. Because what is great for me might not be great for you. Or what was great for me when I had four kids, six and under, and I was working full-time. Like that is not the same now that I have, you know, a couple college graduates and one that lives, you know, it's just a different life. Yes. And I need something different. And and I'm an as an entrepreneur, like we need different things. So that's why the menu matters. It's not just like, here's the thing you should always do that's gonna solve everything. And, you know, because I put that into AI and that Instagram, you know, person put it up and like, this is what they said. You have to understand yourself. It is about self-awareness to get there. You can't just like, yes, you should experiment and try, but it is the self-awareness of knowing, did this work for me? Did this not work for me?

Sara Best 27:04

I love that we're moving in that direction. That's such a great segue to my next question for you, which really is about self-awareness. I know you are an Enneagram practitioner. You have expertise around the Enneagram, which um, as we were talking beforehand, you explained for me that Enneagram is sort of the foundation of these behavioral and personality style assessments. As our listeners know, we use predictive index. There's 780 of them on the market. Right. But as a foundation, it's really about the deep drives and motivations and understanding those. I love that. And as a kind of a newbie to Enneagram, through some other work that I'm doing, developing my own coaching, uh, is it's it's so revealing and powerful, but it it is an access to self-awareness. Yes. And you talk in your book about that's a key principle. Uh, this the development of self-awareness, um, it comes before leadership effectiveness. I think anyone who's ever read a leadership book or listened to any podcast has heard that at least a hundred times. What's your take on that?

Jenn Whitmer 28:05

Well, I I can only say the best person I know to talk about self-awareness is Tasha Yurik. And I was totally, Dr. Tasha Yurik uh endorsed my book and I was so like, oh my gosh, you're amazing. She's a dynamo. She is a dynamo, and she did massive collective studies. So they did all the individual research studies. They looked at the patterns among all of those. That's what Tasha and her team did. Yes. Self-awareness is the number one skill that leaders have to develop. And only about 10% of us have accurate self-awareness. Yeah. And that just kind of goes, ah, ouch. And so when we think about that, ooh, am I in the 10%? I think there are areas of our life where we're all in the 10% and a lot of time we spend in the 90 of not knowing. Yes. And so, as I have also been a student of all the different kinds of uh personality and behavioral assessments, I love them. I mean, like a good buzzfeed quiz about which Harry Potter house you're in, you know, all those are fun. And I love them. Good. Um, and I was initially a big rejector of the Enneagram when I was first introduced to it in college. It was scary, it had these big crazy words that were like lust and gluttony. I'm like, oh wow, what is that? And I didn't like it. And then in the middle of this toxic work environment, I was reintroduced and started understanding that the Enneagram is why we think, act, and feel the way we do. So it gave me an understanding of, oh, if this comes at me, this is why I uh want to respond that way. And so that level of self-awareness, when I understand why, that then changes the access I have to

Joy As A Performance Strategy

Jenn Whitmer 29:40

different types of tools and behaviors. And I always say the Enneagram by itself is uh interesting. I mean, it's fascinating. I would, I could nerd out all day. Right. But that level of self-awareness without any kind of self-disclosure or self-change is is just self-centeredness, doesn't do anything for us. Right. And so that is why the Enneagram is a through line in the book because it's okay, what does how does this show up in my internal stories, in the internal narrative I have? How does it show up in my values? How does this motivation show up in the way I manage emotions? How does it show up in my communication style, in my conflict style, in the way I make decisions, in the way that I need to structure my days? How does it show up in all of these other places? What's my leadership style?

Sara Best 30:29

Yes.

Jenn Whitmer 30:30

All of that comes up because you have to add it to something else. Otherwise, as fascinating and as transformative as I think it can be, you have to add it with something else. Otherwise, it's just navel gazing.

Sara Best 30:43

And I I love that, you know, self-awareness without action isn't anything, it doesn't do anything. You talk about how leaders can only lead as far as they've healed, which I also get. Let me ask you this when leaders become boss holes, in other words, when they do that self-awareness thing or they don't do it, let's say they don't do it, or they do it and they don't do anything about it, they don't, they're not able to or not willing to adjust their actions or do something different in response. Uh, they don't, they don't look at their why. They don't learn from their why and do things differently. So when they become boss holes, it's not a skill problem, is it? Typically, it's an awareness problem. Would you agree?

Jenn Whitmer 31:23

I would agree. I think it is an awareness problem coupled with fear.

Sara Best 31:27

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 31:28

That's what I think. It's awareness of. So when I in the book, I talk about the jihari window, which is my creation. It's sure the jihari. And uh, so there's these four quadrants of self-awareness. And so one of them is what is known to you, but other people don't know. Yeah. And I think that a lot of people who get stuck in that bad leadership habit, they become boss holes, is because they think everybody knows. They're like, they think everybody knows. Like, of course you do it this way. They assume what's their internal world is other people's internal world and motivation. And then the other, one of those other aspects of self-awareness on the Jihari window is it's known to other people, but it's not known to them. They don't see the impact of their behavior on other people, or they do and they don't see it as their problem. Well, this was my intention. We all want to be judged by our intentions and not the impact of our behavior.

Sara Best 32:21

Right.

Jenn Whitmer 32:21

But that is not how relationships work. And leadership is a relationship. And so we have to understand that second aspect of self-awareness. And so when you couple that with, I am afraid to look and change because this has always worked for me, or there has been past past hurt from somebody else. And you're like, well, this was done to me, so I'm gonna behave this way too, because you know, it needs to be fair or whatever kind of taste of thinking comes up. They might not say that out loud, but it happens all the time internally, and it happens in industries. So, you know, one profession that is trying to change this is the medical profession. This is the way we've always trained doctors. This is the way I had to stay up really late and not get enough sleep and cause all this kind of danger. So you do too. That form of logic blows my mind. I think it is crazy town. And but that happens in all kinds of industries, in all kinds of families, in all kinds of organizations, because we're afraid of change or we have this twisted view of what's fair. And if I had to suffer, you have to suffer too. And when people start talking like that, or I've had critics, you know, kind of come up to me with that, you know, they're like, we've always done it this way. And I, well, since the last time you changed it. You know, because like A. And then B, do you feel like the people around you are important? Do you care about them? Yeah. And sometimes they'll say, Well, yeah, you know, some, you know, do I? Am I supposed to? There's that kind of question. And wouldn't you have liked it if somebody else gave you a different way rather than saying, well, this is the way I had to do it. So you have to do it too. Wouldn't you have loved somebody to come along and say, here's a better way that is more human, more caring, eventually more productive? Yeah. Rather than perpetuating this pain. And that's what I mean when I talk about you can only lead as far as you've healed. You've got to release some of those things.

Sara Best 34:27

I was thinking how I would have liked to have heard, hey, this is the way I would do it, or this is the way we've done it before. Why don't you come up with a way that works for you? Yeah. That would be helpful too.

Jenn Whitmer 34:38

Yeah. This is such a good thing. When we're talking about leadership, I always, always am helping the clients I'm consulting with when I'm in the organization over time, is to really switch this idea of managing hours and location to managing outcomes. Like, what is the outcome that we want? If that person is at their desk at eight o'clock and they still don't produce what you want, does it matter? No. Manage the outcomes. Look for the like and give them ownership over that. That is what allows them to do what you just said. How would you get there? Like there are parameters, of course, but yeah, manage the outcomes and give them ownership. That is part of people, then they feel the sense of belonging. They get to do it the way they want to, which is that, oh, I feel lucky, I get to do it. And they're still getting to the purpose of the impact because they start to understand why this matters in your office and your business. So it's still all a part of joy when we start looking at outcomes rather than hours and location.

Sara Best 35:43

Makes total sense. It makes total sense. I know that I mean there's there's so many nuggets of wisdom in your book. I also just want to alert our listeners, it's really, it's laid out really cool. Like there, there's a roadmap that people can follow. You also have a workbook that you created to accompany the book, which is available. I'm gonna read these and you tell me if there's one that maybe we need to make sure we touch on before we wrap up today. We we kind of already covered joy is a strategic advantage, not a soft skill. We we said it a little differently. Uh, leaders create culture through connection. We've covered that one. Um, toxic leadership destroys joy long before it destroys performance. And I love how you position joy as the access to performance. I mean, to me, scientifically and logically, that makes complete and total sense. Self-awareness comes before leadership effectiveness, and you can only lead as far as you can only, yeah, you can only lead as far as you can you've been healed. Joy is not toxic positivity. Yeah. And I think we also covered the bosshole zone. Is there anything in here we want to make sure you get to highlight?

Jenn Whitmer 36:48

I think one of the in the beginning of the book, I talk about five reasons why, if we have all this research, if we know this, if we hear it, we're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Why aren't we doing it? Yes. So there's like, I have five of them in there. But the one that I think is at the root of all of them is that we feel like, hmm, I'm not worthy of joy. I'm not worthy. I don't get to do that. And those messages come from all over the place. The world doesn't owe you anything, you have to work for everything. We're a very earning, worky based culture. Like you don't get anything for free. And we have these myths of pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps, which doesn't exist, uh, even though we think it does. You know, we have all of these messages that say you have to earn it. And you are lucky to have a job. So just don't even worry about joy. And some people are like, that is such a privileged place to say that people can have joy. And I was like, I some of the research I've done around joy comes from when I was in Oxford and studying Holocaust literature. There was still joy. We can have joy in all of these different difficult places. If we decide that one, we're worthy of it, and two, you're willing to work for it. You don't have to earn it. Like, there isn't like, if I pay my dues, I get it sometime later. But it is something we have to cultivate and work at in our lives. It doesn't just float your way. Back to that balloon analogy versus lavender. You have to cultivate lavender.

Sara Best 38:21

You do.

Jenn Whitmer 38:22

And that idea of choosing, I am worthy of joy. So, listener, you are worthy of joy right now, where you sit, where you stand, you are worthy of it. And once we start to believe that, working for it and cultivating it starts to become more logical and easy.

Sara Best 38:43

Everyone, take out a sticky note on your desktop and your Sharpie marker and write down, I am worthy of joy. And you will stick that anywhere on your monitor where you can see it every

Self Awareness That Prevents Boss Holes

Sara Best 38:55

single day. And I'm thinking there are probably subtle ways that people could test out if they're having a worthiness issue. Would one of them, Jenn, be that maybe I'm really jealous of other people who seem joyful? And I feel yucky around that. I feel a sense of ick and even disgust around it. Yeah. Because I've probably canceled that out in myself.

Jenn Whitmer 39:18

Yes. Absolutely. I think that is a great way to approach it. Like, oh, what do I feel when I'm around joy? So jealousy is I don't want them to have it either. I don't have it and I don't want you to have it. That's that jealousy. Whereas envy is more, why can't I have that? Yeah. So, like, there's a little subtle difference there. So that is a good indicator of like the worth question. And then also the idea around vulnerability. Joy is the most vulnerable emotion because it's about the core of who we are. And if I let people see that what could happen. And at the same time, we deeply want to feel seen in who we are. And so that is the other thing that prevents if you are afraid of what if I do this, if you start thinking about what are they going to think. And I had a coach tell me one time, they already don't like you. Like there are people out there who already don't like you, which is so true. And so I it's so freeing when I'm like, okay, fine. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna be who I am. I don't need to be bigger than who I am. I don't need to push it on somebody else. Right. Me existing is already upsetting to some people. And that is not my business. That's not right. And so figuring out, like, ooh, why, why do I struggle with this worth? That may be part of it. It might be fear, fear of what other people think, fear of what would happen, and this idea of envy of other people. Am I, ooh, like all of those are really good indicators that there might be a story you have about joy that isn't helping you.

Sara Best 40:53

Yeah. It makes me think that worthiness is also a leadership competency. It's something we probably all need to investigate further as to the level of worthiness we may have or not have, and set about some actions to help find that worthiness.

Jenn Whitmer 41:11

And we have so many issues around worth because we tie productivity to worth in our culture. So I mean, we have, oh my gosh, you were what is a 0.75 FTE even mean, friends? Like, can you be three-quarters of a human? No, you can't. Like, I understand, you know, MBA-wise, why that makes sense in an organization. But then we start to tie that to our identity. Your output is not your worthiness. That's just what you created. Right. Like you have worth, inherent worth as a human to live, to breathe, to have joy. All of that, you don't have to produce a thing to be worthy of.

Sara Best 41:47

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 41:47

You have to cultivate it, but you don't have to do anything to be worthy of it.

Sara Best 41:51

Gotta plant the lavender, cultivate it. Let me ask you this, Jenn. You are such a gift, by the way. This is this might be one of like the most, if not the most favorite episode I've gotten to record on the podcast. This has really been wonderful. That's kind of you. Yeah. Um, I'm excited for uh more people to hear and understand what you're doing. I know you're an international speaker, you've been doing this for a long time. What's next for you? Like what is on the horizon for joyosity and for you and your business?

Jenn Whitmer 42:23

Yeah. Well, continuing to help uh large events and organizations figure out how to you actually cultivate this in your real life. I just got back from a large association conference and talking to them about joy and toil and how do they incorporate that into their work. And so that's always something I love doing and spreading this message because the more businesses, one person at a time, start to cultivate their own joy, we start to then have more joyful workplaces that are going to be more productive, but it also is gonna impact our home life, our communities. And so, back to that idea of this disruption that's happening in our world, the more I can get people to understand joy and the human skills that are required as AI comes at us, as political upheaval continues, the better we will be. Like we will actually be able to solve these problems. So I the more I get to be in front of people like that. And then I also love working with individuals. I have a coaching program called the Joyosity Core Advantage that is really helping people understand what are the patterns in their life that are preventing them, what are the reactive patterns? What is the hidden drag they're experiencing every day? Where is the toil? Why is that happening?

Sara Best 43:37

Yeah.

Jenn Whitmer 43:38

Then helping them rebalance into the joy ratio because it's really hard to think about how do I get more joy, but how do I understand what the toil is? That feels appealing. And so, how do we get there? Is uh what I help people do individually as a cohort.

Sara Best 43:53

That's awesome. I would say to some degree, that's what I'm doing currently in the work, my professional development work, which is around finding um those motivations and those patterns, identifying those patterns and shifting those patterns.

Jenn Whitmer 44:08

Because I bet what you were doing five years ago

Worthiness Practices And Closing

Jenn Whitmer 44:10

worked and now it's not. Like that change, it changes over time. And yes, we've got to keep that in front of us.

Sara Best 44:18

Yeah, we are ever-growing, ever-evolving beings, and the world is certainly a different place than it was five years ago, for sure. We will make sure that all of these things are linked in our show notes, Jenn, so people can find you and your coaching program. They'll have access to buy the book and listen to your podcast. Uh, I hope that we get to speak again. I'd love to have you as a guest again on the podcast. Deepest gratitude for the work you do, uh for the way you present it. It's pretty powerful. And yeah, any final thought from you?

Jenn Whitmer 44:49

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I love what you're doing and helping people because I agree, nobody wakes up and wants to be a boss hole. That's not what they think. And so, how do we help people and save lives together? I am so grateful for your work. There are not enough of us doing this work. And so we just have to keep continuing out there in the world doing that. And I would love to hear if you've listened uh all the way to the end. Uh find me, I play the most on LinkedIn and Instagram. So jenwitmer.com, gen with two ends. We'll have all the links to everything. But I'd love to hear what your takeaways are. And tag Sarah, tag me, tag the podcast so we know what you thought. Because here's my sneaky teacherness. When you share it with somebody else, it actually starts to change your brain and you are more inclined to continue doing the work. So maybe that's actually why I want to hear about it.

Sara Best 45:36

Awesome. What a great call to action for our listeners. Jenn, good luck to you. Thank you again for your time and friends uh in the Boss Hole Transformation Nation. We shall see you next time on the Boss Hole Chronicles.

Announcer 45:52

Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the bossholechronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.