Amanda Schneider - Work for What's Next (Part 1)

Everyone has an opinion about Gen Z at work, but most of the hottest takes miss what’s actually breaking: the workplace is still built on analog rules while expectations move at digital speed. We sit down with strategist, researcher, and keynote speaker Amanda Schneider to talk about her national bestselling book, Work for What’s Next, and why “get back to the office” is not a culture strategy. 

• Click HERE for Amanda's Book, Work for What's Next: Why Workplace Culture is Failing and How the Next Generation Can Fix it
• Click HERE for Amanda's TedX presentation
• Click HERE for Amanda's LinkedIn profile
• Click HERE for the Design Nerds Anonymous episode with Mark McCrindle

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Transcript

Welcome And The Culture Question

Sara Best 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome back to The Boss hole Chronicles. This is Sara Best. I'm your host today. I'm joined by the ever-popular Gen Z'er team member of ours and my daughter, Hannah Best, for a very cool two-part episode. What if the workplace frustrations most leaders blame on the younger generation are actually symptoms of an outdated leadership and culture? On our episode today, Amanda Schneider joins us. We're covering her new book called Work for What's Next: Why Workplace Culture is failing and how the next generation can fix it. You are not gonna want to miss today's content. Amanda is a strategist, a researcher. She is a very fast-growing popular keynote speaker and subject matter expert here. And she's taken a very unique life experience and wrapped it uh around uh this business problem that we're facing with multiple generations in the workplace. And she's got some powerful ideas that all of us really need to be listening to. So let's dig in.

Announcer 1:23

The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, the talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.

Sara Best 1:46

Amanda, welcome to The Boss hole Chronicles. What a gift to have you here today.

Amanda Schneider 1:50

I'm so excited to be here and so excited to be here with like our multi-generational interviewers. This will be fun.

Sara Best 1:56

For our listeners today, I'm here with my uh co-host and beloved friend and daughter, Hannah Best. And this is a really powerful topic today. And I I I'm not even going to introduce it from this perspective of it's a topic. It's a book, it's a TED Talk, it's a it's a mindset shift. By the way, your book, Work for What's Next, Why Workplace Culture Is Failing, and How the Next Generation Can Fix It, just hit today, the national bestseller list. So, first of all, congratulations for that. This is your first book. It's a powerful piece. Uh, do you want to say anything about hitting the bestseller list, what that's like?

Amanda Schneider 2:35

Yeah, I mean, it was a goal. So we were working towards it. But, you know, like a lot of these things, you oscillate between like, this is amazing. I've got this, and like, holy crap, I'm never gonna hit this. Uh, so to actually hit it, uh, it feels really good. So, number 11 on the USA Today bestseller list. Yes. Uh, with more lists coming out later this week. So uh we'll be, you know, fingers crossed, excited to see if we hit any others. But this is a big one. And I I feel proud and excited, less about the accomplishment and more just fulfilled that this dialogue is gaining steam.

Amanda’s Story And Third Path

Sara Best 3:08

We're so honored, too, to feature you and this work to help spread the word about the dialogue. Help our listeners understand how you arrived at the point you are today.

Amanda Schneider 3:18

So I like to say I'm a designer by degree, a journalist by accident, and a researcher by choice. So, my very succinct cocktail party version of introducing myself. So I'm a product designer by background, uh, grew up in the interiors industry. So, interior design industry on the product side. Very quickly realized there was kind of a gap in how the product design side of the industry thought and the interior design uh side of the industry thought. So um, through a calamity of things that sound very easy and short, uh, I started my own business in 2011, which was a terrifying point. Um, but it really uh took off. And that was a chance to really kind of do the things that that I wanted to do. So I saw a business need, I built the need around the business need, ended up incorporating by 2015, sold it to the largest media company in our industry in 2018, and have been helping them scale it ever since. Uh, but the backstory about that that's really fun, that is only coming out now. We prove business success first, is really that I guess behind the scenes story was that, you know, work as it was written wasn't working for me. I didn't like the binary path I felt that I had as a mother. Uh, it felt like you can be a working mom and work in a world that's not built for you to be a very good mom or the kind of mom, the involvement that I wanted to be, or you can be a stay-at-home mom, which definitely didn't feel like what I was wired for. And so I built a third path. And I think what's really interesting about this moment and what I talk about in the TED Talk, if anyone's listened to uh the TED Talk, is that what Gen Z is asking for today and what our research has revealed around Gen Z is not unlike what I was struggling with as a working mother. So uh I just read an article this morning that was talking about, you know, flexibility. And one of the things that article said is some people think it's lowering the bar, but it's actually widening the doorway. And I love that. And I hope that we talk about today some of the commonalities between my journey as a working mom and really what Gen Z is asking for, because I think that is part of widening the doorway for a successful business future. And I think that's a really important thing. Not everyone agrees that there's generational challenges. Some of these generational challenges and frustration with the youngest intermits is not new, but this moment in time is very, very new. And so what the book really challenges is, you know, not generational research for the sake of generational research. It's solving business problems with a generational lens that helps widen that doorway.

Analog Norms Cause Burnout

Sara Best 5:49

Oh, so I gotta ask right out of the chute here. Not that we don't already know this, by the way, but I think you so articulately express what's broken in the workplace. Tell us more about that.

Amanda Schneider 6:00

Yeah, the simplest way I can describe that is I think we are still operating in analog norms in a digital speed world. And what that is resulting in is burnout, it's disengagement. So one of the studies that I love to cite is uh the Gallup engagement pool.

Sara Best 6:18

Yes.

Amanda Schneider 6:18

Um we saw a huge fall-off in 2020. I think that's understandable. All of your listeners can probably relate to what caused that in 2020. But what many people do not know is we saw a similar fall off in 2024. And I think that that is just from fatigue and mental load that the old rules aren't working, but we don't yet have new rules in place. And what's even more alarming is we actually saw a similar fall-off in 2025 in that same study. So the first time in history, two years in a row, we've seen similar fall-off. And the largest fall-off is actually with mid-level managers. Right. Mid-level managers are the people translating what's happening, feet on the street, those, you know, entry-level, ground level worker be workers to management and policy from management down to everyone on their teams. And they are fatigued, they are burning out, they had the sharpest fall-off in engagement. And I think that that is a very loud warning call to all of us that we need to rewrite these norms in our workplace for the speed of the digital era that we're living in.

Sara Best 7:19

Even as you say that, I feel that pressure sort of rising, the pressure on my chest that I know other people are living and experiencing, and maybe they're not even fully aware of what it is. But it it is this dissonance that's been created by we keep operating a certain way, but it's not working. It's not achieving the results we need. It we can't recover. Would you agree? We can't recover from the dysregulation that's been brewing for a long time.

Amanda Schneider 7:46

I think it's a time drought, right? Like, you know, and it's almost a cultural badge in our in our world. Like, how are you? No one's ever like, I'm not busy. Like the common response is I'm so busy. It's almost worn as a badge of honor. But what's really happening today, like, you know, when when flexible work started, we were all so excited, right? I can work anytime, anywhere. It sounded like a party, but now we're working all the time and everywhere. There's never a chance to shut off. And there's so many meetings. Like that's back to our analog norms. Like face to face is best. We have to be, you know, human to human. That's all true. But we can't be in all day meetings so that our real work has to be done at night on the couch after the kids go to bed. Like it is not sustainable for the humans involved. And therefore, if your human capital is not sustainable, it's not sustainable for the business. So I come back to this is a business challenge. And the companies that get it right in the future are going to be the ones that win this talent war that is brewing.

Gen Z Research Through Business Problems

Sara Best 8:44

So we were talking before we hit record here about research you've done with Gen Z, and it's so relevant here. Can you describe what your research uncovered?

Amanda Schneider 8:55

Yeah. Um, I think one of the most important things, and it's like literally the first paragraph I write in the preface, is we don't start with generational differences. I think, you know, again, generational differences aren't necessarily new. Every oldest generation complains about the youngest generation or myths. We start with business problems. And what we do in our research is we measure across four different generations. Um, their most predominant generations in the workforce, so baby boomers, Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z. And so everything that we measured in this original study, which for us started in 2023, really looks across generations. So we're solving real business problems that business leaders are struggling with. At the time, it was a lot around remote work and how to reframe to build culture in an increasingly digital era. Um, but we look at those business challenges and perceptions across all generations so we can compare and contrast. I love it, it's a, I think it's a Brene Brown saying, you gotta name it to tame it. Yes. Um, what we saw in our research is that they are not always aligned, that different generations definitely see the world in different ways. So by calling that out, it gives us kind of a basis in facts, not emotions, to name what's broken and really start about, start talking about how we want to collectively fix it together. And I think that that's what's so exciting to me about Gen Z. Gen Z, the earliest of Gen Z, assuming knowledge workers, assuming a traditional college path, uh, graduated in 2019. Okay. So at best, they had just under a year under their belt of the traditional working world before kind of the world changed dramatically. I think we can all agree in 2020. Yeah. So while this is a big change management issue for older generations, right? Like this all feels like a big shift to those who of us who grew up in, as one Gen Zier called it on my podcast, who grew up in the before, um, to Gen Z, like this digital, they are digital natives. This is really, for most of them, all they've ever known. So I love the phrase, a fish doesn't know it's in water, it's just swimming.

Sara Best 11:05

Yes.

Amanda Schneider 11:06

So the idea in the book is by looking to Gen Z to say, like, what feels natural to you, it can maybe help us find solutions that could work for all of us. This is not about giving Gen Z what they want so that some older generation has to give something up. It's really about looking to Gen Z as these digital natives that to them it's as natural as the air that they breathe to figure out how we can find solutions that might work to make a better work life for all of us.

Fidgetal Connection Beats Lunchroom Fear

Sara Best 11:32

I can't help but think of uh my best friend's son when he graduated college. It must have been 2022 or three. 2022, perhaps. And his job, no, you know what? It had to be during the pandemic because his job was in his bedroom. His first real job in New York City was in his bedroom. And and that's the way he's always lived. So I think that's a big aha for someone like me who was really feeling empathy and concern and this is no kind of life. Like this is all he's ever known. And so so what now what? Like, what do we do with that information? Hannah, what's your take on the water that you swim in? Like what what what's your reaction when when you hear that?

Hannah Best 12:20

Well, one of the things I think about and I think is a kind of a common theme in the book is that when we think about digital, it's not that it's all digital. We might start digital and then move to that human interaction. And I think about my college experience. So I graduated high school in 2020, started college the fall/slash spring of 20 into 21, and we started fully digital. I also played a sport in college, so my team, we were in a complete bubble, we couldn't see anyone outside of that. We're tested weekly. So we were very, very contained, and I didn't see much and have many experiences outside of that. But as the kind of first semester, second semester shifted, we started to get a little bit more in person and we kind of weaned back into fully in person, probably within the first two years of college. But it never went full in person. I always had some type of um digital interaction at first. And I think what I became so accustomed to is how beneficial it was to have that first digital touch. And then when we got in person, where we were able to start was at a much faster or um at an elevated level because we had this little bit of preparation and we were very comfortable with that. So I think that's what stands out to me in my college experience, and now moving into the workplace. I still have this digital touch, and I probably spend most of my time digital, but I still have the opportunity to be human. And I've think I've mastered, maybe not mastered, but I'm very comfortable with that transition or kind of going back and forth.

Amanda Schneider 13:52

And I think that transition in our research is much more natural for your generation. And while I love you sharing that and your experience during the pandemic, I think what's so interesting about that is I'm guessing it started even before then. If you think about like when I was a kid, uh I would wander down to the park to see who's there, right? To play with my friends. I'm guessing, Hannah, even as a kid, like uh how old were you when you got your first cell phone?

Hannah Best 14:16

I was actually I was pretty young. I think I want to say around four maybe 13 or 14. I was the babysitter and I actually you were 10, Hannah.

Sara Best 14:24

Oh, I was like that. You were 10, turning 11 very soon. Yeah.

Amanda Schneider 14:28

Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, like at 10 years old, you probably didn't necessarily meet up with someone unless you digitally interacted with them first.

Speaker 3 14:39

Yeah.

Amanda Schneider 14:40

And I think this is so interesting to me because I feel like we are frustrated. You know, again, we're frustrated with the newest generation of remits and get off my lawn. And like again, these things that are not new, but we help create that. Like we all gave you these phones and these tools. And, you know, I work in the interiors industry. So a lot of what I do is connecting product brands with interior designers to who recommend their product, right? And one of the simplest things that they ask for is put your photo in your email signature. Because when I walk into an industry event, I don't know that you're Sarah Best at Sarah Best.com, you know, unless I've seen your picture in your. So how do I connect this digital world that feels very familiar to me with this physical world that I also equate to? It feels like like the lunchroom cafeteria. I feel like everyone of any age can relate to you got your tray, you're in the junior high cafeteria, and you step out of the line with your food and you're looking for your friends. Yeah. It's a terrible feeling. Everyone knows this visceral feeling. And I think that as we look at our traditional onboarding, our traditional office culture, our traditional office politics, how that works, we're putting people of all ages in that uncomfortable lunchroom cafeteria spot without even realizing it. And that's a lot of what the book argues for is little simple ideas that came from Gen Z about like ways that we can connect this digital and physical world. And Hannah, I'm curious, like coming back to you, as I talk about that photo and an email signature, is there anything else as you think about your entree into the professional world or even your college career that has been a tiny thing like that that's helped you avoid that awful feeling?

Hannah Best 16:18

That's a good one. I mean, even thinking about like in college when do you start to learn about how you should make a resume and all the things, we even switched to people who have digital business cards. Like they literally just can't like have their phone and it's like an Apple Pay kind of thing. It just gave your contact automatically goes right into the phone of the other person. Little things like that I think stand out. Um but when it comes to kind of the the interaction in the workplace, I mean we don't I think about our email signatures. I don't have a picture in mind. Um and knowing that I work virtual, what I think about is when I hop onto Zoom and sometimes like your camera isn't automatically on, but you see the person's picture, it's like that, oh, this is what they look like, or just not knowing who you're who you're gonna face. Um so I sometimes I do the little research beforehand just to get an idea of who am I gonna face so I can start to visualize where the conversation is going to go. Um that's that's an interesting point. I haven't really thought about that.

Amanda Schneider 17:19

And I'm curious, how how do you do that research? Because I I don't have my photo in my email signature, despite that I give this advice on podcasts all the time. But but I do have my LinkedIn profile because I think that that, like for anybody who wants a snapshot of who Amanda Schneider is, go to my LinkedIn and that's a pretty good professional, not personal, but professional snapshot. Like Hannah, where do you go to research people before you have a call with them? I would say LinkedIn. Okay. Okay. So that's good. So I'm I'm with it with all the Gen Zers here. Absolutely.

Synchronous Versus Asynchronous Work

Sara Best 17:49

Well, and and I think you highlighted in there a couple of those analog ways of thinking that don't serve us anymore. I'm wondering if we could just highlight a few more, just so that people can be fully aware of what we're talking about. In that old rule idea, there are a couple that really stood out in the book to me. What are some of the top old rules that we need to challenge?

Amanda Schneider 18:15

I I mean, there's 10. And asking me to pick my favorite is like asking me to pick my favorite child. Um, yeah, yeah. So that's that's tough. But um, you know, if I had to pick a couple that I think are foundational for everyone to understand, yes. I would say the first one, which is physical to fidgetal, um, is really important. And that's what we, what Hannah was just saying, you know, is really this, this um, I would say almost an oxymoron of the more digital you get, the more Gen Z wants to show up in person. And I think that that is something that culturally we're still struggling to understand, struggling to comprehend. You know, um, people are like, we have to go back to the office. We have to be face to face. Face to face is best. Right. And listen, I'm not advocating that the office is not important. That's my whole industry. Like, office is very important, especially well designed, super important. I'm not advocating that face-to-face is not important. I think that you can build relationships much faster when you're face-to-face and in person. But also, I work with a fully remote team. I'm closer to these women that I work with than any other group that I have been face-to-face with.

Sara Best 19:22

Yeah.

Amanda Schneider 19:23

They see into my home on a daily basis. They know my kids, they see my pets, they there's like a level of transparency that comes with this digital world. And I think if we can harness that to help build culture, to help people want to show up in person, that to me is one of the most foundational concepts that we old people all need to understand about this next generation. And I think about all of us, because as this digital first world keeps on moving faster and faster and faster, is face-to-face best? Probably still best. But like, do I want to drive? I live an hour and a half from downtown Chicago. Do I want to drive downtown for a 30-minute coffee meeting and drive home? Sometimes depends on who it is. Maybe I would do that. Right. But not for every single one. It just doesn't make sense for all of these things. So I'll say that's another one is is really uh one of the concepts in the book really talks about synchronous and asynchronous work. Yes. And maximizing the balance of those two things because the thing that every generation is feeling right now is this time drought. We feel busier than ever. We feel like things are around us are moving faster than ever. But I think a lot of us feel like we're not necessarily uh accomplishing more at that face. We have this sense of a heavy mental load of always behind. And so, you know, a piece of this also is balancing that synchronous and asynchronous work, getting the right balance of face-to-face time and digital time. And I think that those are the fundamental, foundational things that we as a culture, as a Americans especially, are really, really going to struggle with for the next 10 years.

Return To Office Meets Trust Gap

Sara Best 20:58

I'm thinking about the CEOs. I've heard make the sweeping statements, you know, we need everyone back in the office, or the ones that say, you know, these digital meetings need to be productive. So I want to just understand a little bit more about how you've capitalized on the relationship, the human component of the digital interaction with your team, the virtual connections. And how could we replicate that they're on Zoom every day with the other?

Amanda Schneider 21:24

So many things to say there. So, first of all, to any of those CEOs mandating back to the office, I would say we can't fix a how problem with a where solution. Um, and I think that, you know, like truly, you're just relocating the dysfunction. Like you can make people show up, and I can't tell you how many Gen Zs have sat in our research and said, like, okay, now I'm just on Zoom in a different place because you told me I have to be here, right? Exactly.

Speaker 3 21:48

So yeah.

Amanda Schneider 21:49

So I think that's one of the foundational things. But also, I I understand where these mandates are coming from. So there's a great piece of research uh by Mark McCrindle. Um, he there's a great episode he was like, On my podcast, Design Nerds Anonymous. You can find that episode with him down in the feed. Nice. But one of the things he looked at is what good leadership looks like from generations. And Sarah, I'm going to ask you to complete the sentence that we were all raised with the golden rule, treat others the way you would like to be treated. That's how all of us, Gen Xers and above, were raised. And so if you look at, according to McCrindle, what good leadership looks like to a baby boomer, good leaders direct. In times of crisis, they're stepping up, they are directing. So I think a lot of these baby boomer leaders are really doing, you know, what they believe is kind, what they believe they would want in a moment of crisis, and that it's authentic and true and it's really well meaning. However, Mark McCrindle goes down to what good leadership looks like. Um, you know, to Gen X, it's good leaders coordinate, um, millennials, I can't remember what it is off the top of my head, but um, you get down to Gen Z and good leaders empower. That's what it looks like to them. And I cannot tell you how many times in our research we heard like, I trust you when you trust me. You know, I feel valued by you when you value me. Like it's it's very much a mirror. So, what good leadership looks like to them is this empowerment. Now, if you contrast that with these RTOs, that's the opposite. It's saying, I do not trust you. I need to see you, I need to see that you're working.

Sara Best 23:18

Yes.

Amanda Schneider 23:19

And so it's actually, and this is kind of the basis of the book, that we have a growing trust gap. We asked all generations what is the biggest problem with hybrid work? Twice as many Gen Zers said lack of trust as baby boomers. So you can actually see it growing in the chart, like by generation, to say it's this growing trust gap. And I think that that is probably one of the most foundational things that we have to figure out how do we rebuild that trust when we're all seeing the world from a slightly different perspective. You know, it's the we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. And so until we can kind of gain that empathy, until we can name it to tame it, we can't fix it.

Sara Best 24:01

Right.

Empowerment Mentorship And Better Leadership

Sara Best 24:02

You just, I mean, you're really hovering on what I think most organizations still believe is like touchy-feely, but it is the foundation upon which they can survive and thrive through this digital age. It's the empathy and the emotional intelligence and the human connection. Hannah, can I ask you? Um in your experience and work, have you felt empowered?

Hannah Best 24:26

I have. I think my situation or my industry is unique for maybe where my generation is I often work, I don't work with people my age very often. So I'm um often with leaders that have been in their careers for a good port a good part of their life and their um what they bring to the table um and their leadership styles I seek as an opportunity to learn from. Um but also our team who we work with, we're a small team, and one of the first things I sought out is mentorship. Mentorship was so important because I I think I learned very early on when you know better, you will do better. Um, my Angelo, but the idea of I just want to learn, I want to learn more and surrounding myself with people that are going to help me do that was always something very important in my career for sure.

Sara Best 25:20

That wasn't a trick question, by the way, because she works for our organization. And and you primarily report to my business partner, John, who I think is a great leader and a great coach and mentor. So back to the trust gap. If we're dealing with mismatched expectations and this growing trust gap, I mean, we throw all kinds of things at it, um, events, off sites, team development, uh, assessments. I mean, it's kind of like what it's what we do for sure to try to solve for that. How come we're not making progress?

Experimentation And Gen Z Shadow Boards

Amanda Schneider 25:55

I mean, I think some organizations are. So I'm sure some of the organizations you've helped, you you see making progress too. And I think um, you know, one of my goals with the book is I don't want to make this feel like we're all swimming in a sea of unsolvable problems. I think that that is a danger right now, especially when everything feels overwhelmed. It feels like we don't have time. Um, nobody feels like they have time to slow down and and figure things out. Yeah. Um, I think where we are at this moment in time, one of the things that I strongly suggest. Well, let me let me back up there for a second. Yeah. I think we are a culture of zeros and ones. I think that we want the, you know, is is flexible work here to stay, or are we going back to the office? Like, is it zero or is it one? Yes. I think the truth is actually somewhere in the middle, right? There's a lot of gray area in between, but today nobody wants a diet and exercise plan. Everybody wants a Zebic, right? Like we want the easy solution. Just give me the checklist of what I have to do and I'll check it off. And then, you know, we'll do the mission statement, we'll do this, we'll do that, and and it will be done. We'll we'll complete the checklist and then we'll be skinny, right? Yes. Um, the truth is, you know, we know that the old playbook doesn't work, but we haven't yet agreed on what comes next. So I think the companies that win in the future are not gonna be the ones that are trying to see what their competitors are doing and just do that or check off a list of zeros and ones, like, you know, check we've done that. Yes. I think it's gonna be the ones that are, you know, create a culture of experimentation. And the book is rich with just uh tons and tons of ideas from Gen Z. We even tell you how to set up your own Gen Z shadow board, which is a way to get this fresh perspective in front of leaders, but still filter it through the deserved, earned wisdom of the experience that comes from your seasoned leaders and your seasoned generations. So, how do we create a culture of experimentation and give frameworks that helps these analog natives? And those are according to Hannah Grady Williams, another amazing guest on the Designers Anonymous podcast. How do we give analog natives, which are people 35 and up, and digital natives, which is people 30 and below, if you're in between, it depends how you're raised. But how do we give them common language and frameworks to get them talking? Because as you look at what's happening across organizations right now, um, baby boomers, the largest generation, are retiring at unprecedented rates. Now, some of them are staying in the workplace longer, but still, we are seeing a large group of people retire. My generation, Gen X, we are the smallest generation, we cannot fill their shoes. That means millennials and Gen Z are going to have to step up sooner.

Part Two Teaser And Closing

Announcer 28:40

So if you enjoyed part one of Sarah and Hannah's conversation with Amanda Schneider, make sure you tune in next week for part two. I can assure you, it is every bit as insightful and powerful. It's part one. Thanks for listening in, and we will see you next time on The Boss hole Chronicles.