Michael Kuenzi - Development: Where Performance Really Begins (Part 2)

Most hiring advice skips the uncomfortable truth: if you can’t clearly explain the job, you can’t reliably hire for it. We pick up part two with Mike Kuenzi from Titus Talent Strategies and get painfully specific about role clarity, modern job descriptions, and why so many organizations still post vague requirements that attract the wrong applicants. We also talk about how AI can be useful in recruiting, but only when it’s built on a job target shaped by the people who actually understand the work and the outcomes.

• Click HERE for Part 1 of Mike's TBC interview
• Click HERE for Jonathan Reynolds TBC interview
• Click HERE for  Mike's LinkedIn profile
• Click HERE for Titus Talent Strategies' website

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Transcript

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Part Two Welcome And Setup

John Broer 0:02

Welcome back to all of our good friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer. And if you can hear the sound of my voice, that means you are here for part two of my conversation with Mike Kuenzi from Titus Talent Strategies. Mike and I go back a long way, and it's just a tremendous guy and really, really insightful when it comes to all things related to talent optimization. So we're going to continue our conversation. We're going to get into the idea of clarity around expectations of jobs and culture and all the good stuff everybody's talking about these days. So sit back, listen into part two of my conversation with Mike Kuenzi. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.

Fix Role Clarity With AI

John Broer 1:13

It amazes me still that organizations do not really have current or really well thought out job descriptions, and there is very little role clarity. And this is where I say people see people like, let's just jump onto AI, let's create something and we'll just plug it in there. In our world, in talent optimization and using PI, um, the newest and really coolest thing is the AI component that's built into the platform. They call it Obi, as you know. And I think it's a really, I think it's fascinating and what it can do. But the idea is, well, let's not just get something generic, even though it was created by an external AI platform. Let's tailor our job targets in. I mean, we we can do that in our software, and then it will generate a job ad based on the target, which was created by the internal stakeholders. And I think um, I know the client, our clients, you know the clients that absolutely, once they latch onto that, they love it. And they and it's so simple to do. But then there are others that are sort of mystified, and it's like, wait a second, help me understand. I mean, exactly how this works. We're gonna have job descriptions that are unique to our organization and our positions. It's like, yeah, the technology absolutely exists to do that. And I I think it's like an old mental map that sort of invades the idea. Are you you've got to be seeing that

Performance Profiles Beat Job Descriptions

John Broer 2:41

all the time.

Michael Kuenzi 2:41

I I do think some of it comes from the fact that when you build out something, so we you try to replace job descriptions with performance profiles. Okay. Tangible measurables, but also giving you some sort of what we call an EVP or an employee value proposition of what makes this company different than where you are right now, yes, but also what makes this role attractive. Okay. And then let's describe everything in immense detail of what our expectations are, what you're gonna be accountable for. That really helps us narrow down the right candidate. And it also helps the candidate say, you know what, I can't do that. Because if you say, hey, great interpersonal skills, you're gonna get way more applicants that are wrong than when you're very specific with what it is that you're looking for. Yeah. And a big part of that too is when you think of internal stakeholders, you think of an executive, human resources, and a hiring manager. Let's just take those as the big three that we would look at to try to get their input and who understands the role, they all understand it vastly different. You've got the boots on the ground that is going to be managing that person. Right. You have HR who owns that job description and has a high-level understanding, then you have an executive who understands kind of what the outcomes should be for that individual. But when you get down to it and you actually interview that person, what they care about is vastly different. They they weren't on the same page to begin with. And so when when that team is already, and that's why I actually love the job builder within the predictive index, is because you look at it and you say, All right, you three, executive, you are looking for this big high driving profile. HR, you're looking for somebody far more social than what that executive was comfortable with. Right. And then hiring manager, you're looking for somebody way more detail-oriented. Well, who's right? Well, maybe there's elements of it all, but you have to get a line because when that person starts, executive might be happy, hiring manager might be upset, and already you've got turmoil. Yeah, exactly.

Align Leaders Before You Hire

John Broer 4:56

Exactly. Well, and our listeners might be saying, well, how do you do that? Uh well, for in our world, we you bring them together, those stakeholders, and we have an alignment discussion. And it doesn't have to take long because we're working on their individual data that they that they provide about that job target. I find, Mike, you tell me, I mean, I find that once an organization starts going through this practice, that this becomes a best practice in terms of fine-tuning their job targets, it actually gets really easy. They're very quick about it and they understand the process. And and once they do it, then let's go back to your original point, it's going to start to impact our engagement, our retention, and our performance because the quality and the fit of the person in that role is much higher than our traditional old and outdated practices for hiring. I mean, it just it it's it's worth the lift in the beginning for the result on the end. Unequivocally.

Head Heart Briefcase Plus Baggage

Michael Kuenzi 5:55

Yes. And this is where we've leaned into the um head heart briefcase methodology. Yeah. It is so big, and people think that it ends with hiring when it goes right into development. They're absolutely look at the briefcase to start, because that's historically where we all hang out as hiring leaders what have you done before? It's on your resume, your LinkedIn, whatever. What have you accomplished? And can you do that again? Are you showing that a cheaper pattern? Right. That is historically a very good likelihood that you're gonna find somebody that can can do it, but it's also really easy to practice that interview. The heart is where I believe people really stub their toe because you have to interview around value alignment. Now, the hot button right now is culture fit. Yep. And culture fit to me just is like you're that feels like you're indoctrinating somebody to a culture. Right. That seems like sameness. That doesn't sound like diversity of thought and perspective. What we're looking for is a value alignment. So things like integrity is something that you need to be able to dig into and you've got to be able to ask the right questions around it. That head component is are you naturally wired to do this role? Right. Because that has everything to do with engagement. It has everything to do with productivity within the seat.

John Broer 7:21

Oh, yeah. It's more culture complement than it is culture fit. Oh, I I I I agree with that completely. The um our listeners are very are exceedingly familiar with head, heart, and briefcase. Again, you and I, we were sort of raised in the head, heart and briefcase, the whole person model. We actually added, I think you know this, we actually added a fourth component to it, and that is baggage. I don't know if I don't know if we we started doing that. Yeah, we started doing that a couple years ago. We take the image and it's like we got head, heart and briefcase, and then we'll say, and then there's a fourth component called baggage. And the baggage, just for your benefit, Mike, is baggage isn't always bad. I mean, I consider baggage, you know, we have stuff that we've learned in the past and we pull it forward, and it's wisdom and it's it's experience, and that's good. But uh baggage, other baggage can be the crap that you know we were told when we were younger, you're never going to be good enough, or you're if we had a boss hole who just beat the crap out of us, and that's stuff we carry with us as well. And and that whole person shows up and remember the day. Well, I'm older than you, so I remember the days of you leave your, you know, leave your personal life at the door. That doesn't happen anymore. That whole person is there. So, yes, um, whole person model, totally agree

Culture Is What You Reward

John Broer 8:37

with that. But I'm gonna I'm gonna, if I may, you mentioned the word culture, and I think culture is a fascinating thing. I think, I don't think there's any question that organizations out there in total are spending billions and billions and billions of dollars on their culture. And we would say, and this will resonate with you, Mike, that culture is actually a result of optimizing job fit, manager fit, and team fit. I mean, everybody has a culture, but if you're not, I mean, if you're just focused on culture alone and not thinking about optimizing job fit and not only training and developing people, you're gonna you're gonna be wasting that money. So I love one of the things that you had shared, you know, weeks ago about a you know, another thing we can talk about is when culture breaks down between the intention and the actual performance, it almost becomes I hate to say it, a bit of a bait and switch. Talk more about that because I think this, I think this right now, especially for the emerging workforce, is really critical. I have a belief that culture is what you reward. Okay.

Michael Kuenzi 9:48

It's also what you tolerate and it's what you ignore. Okay. Okay. Those those are the big things. And I think that's what makes up a culture because people are they're hired for what they know and they're fired for who they are. Yeah. Right? The the age-old saying. And so we need to deeply understand that. And I think there's a a component here that if culture is the makeup of your organization, you better be practicing that in all facets of your day-to-day. Okay. It is very common that we walk into an office and they've got their core values on their wall. You see excellence and you see people first and all this. And we go in and we um we're talking to a hiring manager about, hey, we're gonna start interviewing around the heart of this person. What are your values? And they can't name them, or they can't name all of them. Yeah. Right. And so it's it's astounding because they're not living those values. And so that's where we've tried to transfer people's language to be like, these aren't core values, these are lived values. These should be experienced in all aspects of life. Are you interviewing around your values? Okay. And from a culture standpoint, are you measuring people based on their values? Okay. And in order to do that, you have to be very intentional with not only creating values that are going to build that that feeling to build that actual culture that you want, you have to be able to define that as well. Because integrity to John means something different than integrity to Mike. Okay. People first could mean person first. You see where I'm going with that? Yeah, I do. If we make a tough business decision, we have to let somebody go because it's good for the majority of the people, well, that person could turn around and say that wasn't people first. Yeah. Okay. So we we've got to be able to define those. And when we define those, then we're able to actually look at that in a day-to-day and coach around that. And so if you're if I say, John, you have breached the value of integrity, what is the punishment? What do we tolerate? What do we accept? Right. Within that, that's what really makes your culture what it is, is holding people accountable and living on a day-to-day with the things that you breathe and that you live, because that's what people can see and that's what they can sense. Yeah.

John Broer 12:16

Well, and if they see that you are compromising them or violating them, or or I love, I love, I love the comment, Mike, of not only what you will tolerate, but what you will ignore. And man, I tell you what, it's that's huge. That is absolutely huge. It's it's almost like the the manager whose bosshole behavior is excused because their team has, you know, it far exceeds expectations and they're creating great numbers and the revenue, but the the turmoil, the disengagement, the turnover. Um, we're just we're uh, you know, that's just kind of the cost of doing business when you have so-and-so running this team. That right there, people will they'll just leave. I mean, you will, or if they stay, they'll become part of the almost like the permanently disengaged. It's like, yeah, that all those core values and everything, that's that's BS because they don't live by them at all. How how do you have that? I don't know. Have you have you had a conversation recently with a client? Don't name, yeah, don't need any names, but where you've said, you know, this is all BS. You're you say this, but you do this. And I've and I've noticed it. Have you had that had that conversation recently?

When Values Get Violated

Michael Kuenzi 13:28

Yes. And that this is something where we have unfortunately and fortunately fired clients for breaching our values. Okay. And you can imagine in hiring, there's people that are willing to say that certain genders or races or are not welcome still. And that is an immediate, immediately breach of value. Yeah. And calling them out on that in a professional way. Yep. And always trying to pull it back to their own values, because usually integrity's on there. Like we are looking for the best candidate, the one that can do this role, not because they're checking any sort of box for you or because they don't check a box for you. And so there's opportunities there to handle it with care and to coach people. Yeah. If they're coachable. Oftentimes, if we if we're looking at those extremes, definitely um I pray that they can be coachable someday.

John Broer 14:31

I know, I know, but you know, that we have, like you just said, fire a client. You've heard this from us before. We talk about bless, bless, and release. Uh, sometimes they're just clients or people that it's like, listen, we are not a great fit for you. So we're gonna part as friends. Are are you people know Ted Olson, who's been on the on the Ball Soul Chronicles before, uh, when he published his book, we we borrow that from Ted. He always talks about let's part as friends. Um and I I know he uses it in a different context when you're trying to get a response from somebody and it's like I'm not hearing from you, but listen, if you want to part as friends, that's fine. But bless and release is like, yeah, this is well, this is just not a good fit for us because you are incapable or have demonstrated a willingness to completely abandon your core values. And that's okay for you, but it's not okay for us. That's a hard thing to do. But I respect the fact that you know we have to have those conversations. That's tough.

Michael Kuenzi 15:30

Yeah, and I you know, the big thing too is culture is so much, it's it culture is what you see and you feel and you experience. Right. It's not what somebody says. It in fact, if you think of yourself, when you start at a new organization, it usually takes a few months to be like, are they really do they really mean what they say? And talk is cheap and knowing is showing, right? It's it's all the things that are there, and it's challenging to do that because you've got to develop that over time. Yeah. I just think that when it's challenged, when it actually costs something for you to to live by those values, that's when you really start to understand true culture within.

John Broer 16:16

I would agree. I would agree. You just made me think, Mike, of a a colleague of mine, and I've worked with him since then. I mean, we worked together, and then since then uh we have worked, um, they've come on as a client, but I remember talking to him about his recruiting work, and he said, he said, uh I just simply asked him, I said, Well, how have things been? How are you going? Because there was a change in leadership. And he said, I feel like I am selling my soul. I said, What are you talking about? He said, I'm talking to prospective employees, and we got a great pitch, but our employer brand isn't anything like what it's really what is really happening inside these walls. And he said, John, I'm just lying to people and I I can't do this. And I said, Well, okay. I mean, I I respect that, but only you can make the decision as to whether or not you want to stay. But that's how that's how difficult it was. That was the break that you're talking about, is where we do not live out these values that we're we're asking our recruiters and our people to espouse. I mean, he was miserable and he was able to to course correct and some things changed, but that's a that's a horrible position to be in when you know you're encouraging somebody, selling somebody to come on board, um, and they're gonna be miserable.

Coaching Managers On Behavior

Michael Kuenzi 17:34

That's the always kind of the the thing that we train our recruiters and saying, like, hey, what you do is life-changing to people. Right. Finding an another job is a major life event, and you are in control of convincing someone to consider it. Yeah. And that's really, really big. Something else I'll say too about this whole thing and why development is so important, especially for those mid-level mid-level managers that are the ones that are leading these people and communicating with these people day to day, is they're often not good at the two main facets of leading people or the two main categories of leading people, because there's leading somebody towards performance, which is very skill-based, competency-based, technical-based leadership. And then there is leading somebody towards a behavior that aligns with our values and the culture of the organization. Yep. Having a conversation of John, you were a jerk during that meeting is very different. Conversation than John, you're not hitting your sales numbers. Right. Right. And most leaders, I will say, are not good at at least one of those areas.

John Broer 18:50

I would agree. Yeah, that is true. That is so true. Oh my gosh. Mike, we've covered a lot of ground today, uh, which I knew we would, and is awesome. But what else? What else do our listeners need to hear that you're seeing out there in the marketplace?

Spend More On Development

Michael Kuenzi 19:06

I think it's worth considering just thinking about your budget for a second. And thinking about the fact that the majority of people that we work with, we almost get instantaneous approval for them to spend 30 grand on finding a new person. Okay. But most companies struggle to spend more than a thousand dollars on continued training and development for people within their company. Okay. Why why are we spending so much on potential and not so much on the people that are there right now? To me, that's like trading away all your all-star players for a bunch of draft picks. Yeah, that's a good point. Expensive draft picks. Very expensive draft picks. The other thing is I I believe that there is for any manager, especially especially mid-level managers, I think it's very important that they're continuing to develop themselves and find opportunities to really lean into a lot of the resources that are available, both paid and free, that are out there. I think most organizations should take some initiative to sit back and provide a bit more space for people to do that. Because most of the time, especially if you're in a high-producing seat, you've got a billable target to hit, you're not allocating time for personal development and growth. And that's a massive change, but it is a big investment.

John Broer 20:39

Oh, yeah. Yeah. When you think that if you've put somebody into a management or supervisory role, you have compounded exponentially their scope of responsibility. So, yes, we we want them as equipped and prepared as possible, but that's going to take time. That's a great call out. I I completely agree with that. Well, I knew this would be great, Mike. I mean, I just, again, I've always over the years loved our conversations, and I know, I know our um our friends out there in the boss hole transformation nation will appreciate it as well. Let me ask you one final one final question. You've got your fingers on the pulse of what's happening in the marketplace. If our managers could do one thing, I mean, like if if you were to say, go out there and do this one thing, and it will help your the remaining half of 2026, what would it be?

Lead With Care That Scales

Michael Kuenzi 21:31

Do everything you can to care. Everything that you can to care about the person that you're leading. Because with all the training that we're doing, with all the hiring that we're doing, there's always going to be the you can always increase your skill. You cannot replicate care. And care is shown by communication, it's shown by consistency, it's shown by trust. And those are big things that you can control. You can control those three things. Yeah. And that's where the majority of issues between direct report and manager fall. And so if you can consistently show that you're going to retain your people, you're going to get the best out of people. You're going to get loyalty out of them. And so that's the biggest, probably most simplistic advice I could give. I love that.

John Broer 22:22

I love that. Uh we had um a really wonderful person by the name of Lisa Walden on the program. I think it was last year, and she wrote a book called The Future of Work is Human. And great book. Um, her perspectives are great, but you made me think about that because these are humans with whom we're working. And if this is a this is a structural, potential structural problem in an organization, if I've got 20 direct reports, how am I possibly going to care for all of them? You know? And so we could inadvertently be putting our managers at a complete disadvantage of being able to do that. Take your advice because they've got way too many people. And that's a hard thing for some organizations to embrace because they're trying to do more with less. Well, you're gonna get less out of as a result. You're gonna get less care and humanity if you're doing it that way. I love that. Thank you for that. That's awesome.

Michael Kuenzi 23:20

Our CEO uh the other day asked our whole senior leadership team a question. He said, What is something that you bring that a robot could never replace? What's something that could never be automated? Yeah. And every answer was around that. It was the humanity, it was the care, it was the relationship. Um, and so that was something that really was provoking to me to think about we need to grow on that quite a bit.

John Broer 23:51

Yeah.

Links Next Steps And Farewell

John Broer 23:52

And by the way, everybody, Mike is referring to Jonathan Reynolds, who is the CEO of Titus Talent Strategies, who's been on the program before. I'll put his actually what I'm gonna do, Mike, if you're okay with it, I'm gonna put a link to Mike's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. You would be a better person for being associated with this fine individual. And I'll also put a link to Jonathan's episodes in there too, because he's a character. Oh my gosh. Uh man, I tell you what, I I remember you and Jonathan when we've had a chance to get together in Boston at the different uh events, and he's he's uh he's a force of nature, there's no question about it.

Michael Kuenzi 24:31

One of my best friends in life and uh amazing mentor to me, but also I've never not had fun with Oh yeah.

John Broer 24:39

Oh yeah, he's a great guy. Well, Mike, thank you so much. It has been a privilege to have you here. You're such a good human, and uh we'll have you back. I mean, uh, I gotta believe at some point, you know, you're gonna have a book or something happening that you're gonna want to tell the world about. Anything what's what's next for you? Anything next for Mike Kenzie?

Michael Kuenzi 24:59

Since since I was a little kid, I've always wanted to write a book. You know, I feel like it's easier than ever to actually make that happen. So um, yeah, be be on the lookout for that here, probably over the next couple of years, John when I finally get to it. But otherwise, probably the biggest thing is continuing to create a lot more of the leadership development journeys versus individual trainings. That's that's where our focus is right now. Thanks. Good.

John Broer 25:28

Well, best of luck to you, and uh it was so good to have you here. John, always a pleasure. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening in, and we will see you next time on The Bosshole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of The Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.